wobrien
Well-Known Member
savylemons said:
That's awesome! Congrats
Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple
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That's awesome! Congrats
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Congratulations!
marcb
Well-Known Member
malweth said:Wow! Good answerWish I had that sort of set up
How much would the yeast's heat overpower air cooling? I only used heat and a cool basement (supplemented with ice and fan) to limit the yeast on either end. I don't use evaporative / wet cooling because it's difficult to control, but I can't afford much else.
Does this ramp change the ester profile much from a natural rise and artificial hold at temps? Or does it mainly just allow for consistency?
Air cooling works but you have to understand and plan for the thermal mass of the fermenting beer. The last Tripel I did used WLP530 with a large starter. In a temp controlled, air cooled insulated room the ramp was insane. It went from 68-80 in 12 hours in a 65 degree room. This was a 45-50g batch. Now I'm implementing glycol coils....
ultravista
Well-Known Member
savylemons - congratulations!
Did you modify the recipe or follow it verbatim?
Did you modify the recipe or follow it verbatim?
savylemons
Active Member
The only change was that I used 2 lbs of d180 and 1 lb of d45 instead of the syrups recommended. Followed the same fermentation schedule and used quite a bit of 3787 slurry from a dubbel I did instead of doing a stirplate starter. This is the first competition I entered and am surprised I was able to score a 39 and win gold even with the beer being relatively young. For my taste it still seems a little strong which is keeping it from being exceptional bit this seems to be drastically improving with time.
ultravista
Well-Known Member
I used 3 #'s of D180 for my batch, it under-attenuated just a bit therefore it's slightly sweeter than it should be. It is a damned good beer, and to be honest, as someone who has not yet had a real Westy 12, I think it is awesome. It tastes like a St. Bernardus 12 to me, a beer I can source locally on tap too.
Mine is kegged.
Mine is kegged.
savylemons
Active Member
Me and some friends did a blind taste test of this Westy 12 clone, st bernardus 12.and rochefort 10. The st bernardus and Westy only had about a month in age difference (6-7 months) where the rochefort had over a year on it. The results were the same across the board rochefort being preferred with Westy 12 in a close second and st bernardus coming in 3rd. That was my first time having such a fresh st bernardus and I really didn't enjoy it that much I actually falsely identified it as my clone just because it was so harsh and boozy I just assumed it was my homebrew haha.
cjalderman
Well-Known Member
So I have a question over the grain bill in CSI's recipe, is the combination of belgian pilsner and 2 row necessary for a true clone? Is there a large flavor difference between that and an all pilsner grain bill?
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Really, really liked this question. It kind of cuts to the goal of making the perfect Westvleteren 12 clone. Here's our opinion so far for whatever its worth.
Belgian Pils tends to be mildly "sweeter" than german or other pils so it seems to match the clone goals better. Reading between the lines I think what you're asking is if the Belgian Pils and Belgian Pale combination is necessary, (both are 2-Row barley so I hope this assumption is correct). This is the same question we have had in formulating the new Westy 12 clone trials for this Fall 2013. Given the most recent taste testing of the Westvleteren 12 import I have a theory that the St. Sixtus brewers are *currently* using only Belgian Pils with single decoction to add that slight toasted breadiness. That's the theory based on recent tasting anyway. Some say Castle and some say Dingeman's. We're not sure (yet). Hopefully we'll have more testing on that later this year also.
I can't wait to begin the next round of trials.
cjalderman
Well-Known Member
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
I like to start the decoction by crashing the mash onto a hot kettle for a subtle maltose carmelization. Then we bring to a boil and hold for about 2-3 minutes, (stirring to make sure the grain does not char). We have a stainless bottom surface diameter of 22". Surface area counts in decoction timing. More maltose carmelization occurs on a larger surface area in less time.
Saq has an interesting reduction technique that by definition can also be considered a refined form of decoction and is well worth looking into. If memory serves he uses decanted wort (not sure if it is vorlaufed) and then reduces it down with a high rolling boil to a thickened consistency then adds it back to the mash. A somewhat advanced but very cool method
cjalderman
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the replies, I'm looking forward to this brewday now instead of wondering if I'll be able to do it correctly haha
savylemons
Active Member
Oh wow my first attempt at the csi recipe with decoction I boiled the decoction 20+ minutes. I really could have saved myself some time with that 2-3 minute boil. I hope it doesn't have a negative impact on the flavor.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Saq, would you mind chiming in on your reduction technique? Could that be used in lieu of the proper decoction? I did a practice decoction mashout to see how it works on a quad recipe recently. I didn't quite hit my numbers but followed some suggestion that said boil at least 15 minutes which seems to have been complete overkill and led to the dropping of the mash temp. I will attempt the same again just to practice at hitting target temps of 170 before I risk it on a proper batch like the Westy clone.
Thank you,
Ryan
Thank you,
Ryan
VOCBrewery
Active Member
Ok, after reading over 3.5 years of this thread and taking endless notes I'm ready to pull the trigger. I'm going to brew New world and CSI's 17x. I do BIAB and was wondering, instead of decoction can I do a mash in @129* for 20 min. Then just increase the temp to 150* for 90 min then increase the heat again to mash out@170*? Then I would fly sparge to get to my preboil volume.
Thanks to Saq, CSI and all who have contributed to this thread. My D-180 and D-90 came in yesterday and I'm pumped to get this going.
Thanks to Saq, CSI and all who have contributed to this thread. My D-180 and D-90 came in yesterday and I'm pumped to get this going.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Great pic!
bovinejony
Well-Known Member
Brewed the traditional yesterday:
Only bought 1lb of D2 candy syrup by accident. So, it will be a much lighter beer, and needs less bittering. Thus, I only boiled for 60minutes, bittering at 60min with Target hops (version of northern brewer, spicier i think, me likey), and then 1.5oz of hallertauer at 15minutes. I added the D2 and flameout. FG was 1.072. Now I just hope my WL530 takes care of the rest.
Only bought 1lb of D2 candy syrup by accident. So, it will be a much lighter beer, and needs less bittering. Thus, I only boiled for 60minutes, bittering at 60min with Target hops (version of northern brewer, spicier i think, me likey), and then 1.5oz of hallertauer at 15minutes. I added the D2 and flameout. FG was 1.072. Now I just hope my WL530 takes care of the rest.
FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
If you read Brewing Better Beer by Gordon Strong the answer is YES you can attain the results of a decoction mash by adjusting your grain bill (that is the variable) and step mashing.
VOCBrewery
Active Member
Thanks Fred
cjalderman
Well-Known Member
Brewed this last night. Missed my temps by a little bit but wound up with 82% efficiency and an OG of 1.095. Now it's time to build a temp controlled fermentation chamber.
savylemons
Active Member
Just a quick question for csi or anyone who has experience with these recipes.. I got my scoresheets back from the bjcp comp that I took gold medal and scored a 39 and the only critique they had was that it was too warm in the mouth and said to lower fermentation temps. Now I pitched my yeast at 63 and was only able to ramp to 79f which after reading blam I thought the temp raising is what leads to the nice esters, phenols, and attenuation that we love in the westmalle strain. Does the "warming/hotness" fade and just a symptom from being young (8 mo in the bottle) or would I really want to not ramp so high maybe to just 75f or so. It seems to me the beer is getting "less hot" with age but that might just be me trying to convince myself that.
Brewskii
Well-Known Member
Not a huge amount of Belgian experience here but I brewed this 1/1/13 and it is most definitely less hot as time passes.Even now it's much better than it had been a month ago.
It also occurs to me that many judges feel obligated to give "helpful" info to explain their point of view. I value that they do but often feel as though fermentation temps are a blanket, catch-all that they sometimes throw out there just to have something to say.
If you won gold with this I'm surprised they criticized your technique and I would take it with a grain of salt.
The longer you wait the better this seems to get. 12 months seems pretty standard.
It also occurs to me that many judges feel obligated to give "helpful" info to explain their point of view. I value that they do but often feel as though fermentation temps are a blanket, catch-all that they sometimes throw out there just to have something to say.
If you won gold with this I'm surprised they criticized your technique and I would take it with a grain of salt.
The longer you wait the better this seems to get. 12 months seems pretty standard.
Exactly right. The judges I think sometimes feel obligated to mention something. Its not like you sent the recipe and ferm temps for him to know whether or not it was fermented warm or cold. I'be been "advised" to lower ferment temps or do this or do that. I think often times its just a slight case of arrogance and beer geekery coming out in the judge. I have the opinion that they are supposed to give note on taste and flavor, not on brewing techniques or tips. I get why they do, but even as an experienced homebrewer, a professional brewer, and QA minded formally science trained dude, I would not offer tips or advice. This is mostly for fear of talking out of my butt, unless the person is telling me what they did in order to end up with the result I am tasting.
Well OK I just did
- will report more for posterity after kegging or bottling (have not decided which). I pitched a 1400ml starter into 65F .090 wort (New World recipe) this Sunday afternoon, got it to free-rise up to around 78-80 by the end of the next day, though it was a challenge to keep it up there even wrapped in a sleeping bag. Bubbles had slowed significantly yesterday, and this morning measured in at .012. So far so good!
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
+1. Outstanding.
BeerMeDuffMan
Well-Known Member
Dear Lord this yeast strain is aggressive. 6 hours in and its already chewing my blow off line up
solbes
Well-Known Member
3787 is a BEAST! Just wait another day or two and see what it looks like.
I have blown a bucket lid with 2 batches long ago, and that's how stubborn I was. Learned my lesson the second time I guess to always use a blow off with that one.
I have blown a bucket lid with 2 batches long ago, and that's how stubborn I was. Learned my lesson the second time I guess to always use a blow off with that one.
ultravista
Well-Known Member
I use a blow-off tube with every batch - just to play it safe. After it settles down, the airlock goes back on.
savylemons
Active Member
I used to hassle with the blowoff you need with this yeast but now I ferment in 8 gallon wine buckets with an unsealed lid. Makes it easy to top crop that healthy krausen yeast and maybe it simulates open fermentation at westvleteren but it probably makes no difference.
ultravista
Well-Known Member
Making a starter for Sunday's brew. My batch dated 12/28/12 is nearly gone. If all goes well, the washed yeast from that batch will get the starter going for another session. The syrups really darkened the slurry, had a heck of a time washing it. It's really dark - we'll see what happens.
ultravista
Well-Known Member
Too late - already started. I've used 12 month old Pacman and WLP007 with no issues. Those however were milky white and looked like they did when purchased. This batch, post ferment, has never settled into stratified layers as others have. It smelled OK and the slurry had no off flavors. Not a scientific indicator by no means, but it did pass the smell test.
bovinejony
Well-Known Member
Anyone opt out of the cold-fermentation step in the recipe? I am not able to keep a beer at 55C as of yet. Should I then bottle, bottle-condition, and maybe age the beer in the fridge? Or just roll with the higher-temps of fermentation and let sit for a month or so?
ultravista
Well-Known Member
I would not forego the cold rest; however, try it and let us know how it turns out!
Due to time constraints and equipment probs before I left, I was unable to perform any steps at cellar temps. This batch I am sure is not going to taste very close to how its supposed to, but I will still drink it. Next time I will be sure to cellar the batch when its supposed to be. However, if I had the ways and the means at the time, I would have followed the steps including cellar temps.
In my uneducated opinion, not following the cellar temps where its called for in the recipe will cause the beer to not taste the same as if you did. And aging the carbed bottles at fridge temps could slow down the conditioning process.
bovinejony
Well-Known Member
Rodger that. I guess I can only expect something different from not following the steps exactly. I will report on the finished product, but I doubt I can track down a Westvleteren 12 to compare my beer to.
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