Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

mightynintendo said:

I have a question pertaining to the fermentation schedule.

After cooling the wort to 65F and pitching the starter, the instructions are to allow the temperature of the wort to "self rise" to 82F.

At what ambient temperature should I be allowing my wort to self rise to 82?

If I allow an ambient temperature of 81, obviously I am going to achieve the max temperature relatively quickly. If I allow an ambient temperature of 60, I may not ever reach 82.

Is there any information on the ambient fermentation chamber air temp at the Westvleteren brewery during the self-rise phase of fermentation? If not, I would be curious to know what other brewers who have had success with this recipe allow.

Thanks!

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At an ambient of 68-70, mine was chilled to 65 and rose to 80 by the 36hr mark. From there i strapped on a brew belt with the temp controller set at 82 degrees.

My room temp is 71F. I usually get about 7 degrees on top of that from fermentation. I wrapped the carboy in a fairly heavy blanket at the start and hit 82+.

Gritsak said:

At an ambient of 68-70, mine was chilled to 65 and rose to 80 by the 36hr mark. From there i strapped on a brew belt with the temp controller set at 82 degrees.

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Is there ever a concern of going above 84? I have a temperature-controlled fermentation chamber and I want to make sure I keep the temp between 82-83 for the correct duration, but I want to give it a chance to climb to that peak temp on its own from an appropriate ambient temp. I assume that after reaching the 36 hour mark, heat generation will slow.

The chamber temperature control would look something like this if I understand correctly:

ferment temp 65-83 degrees: cooling/heating depending on temp outside fermentation chamber, hold ambient air temp in chamber at 70 degrees while monitoring fermentation temp separately.

ferment temp 83 degrees: cooling, hold fermentation temp between 82-83 degrees until fermentation temp drops below 82

ferment temp drops below 82: heating, hold ferment temp between 82-83 degrees until gravity of 1.018 is achieved

1.018 achieved: lower ferment temp by 2 deg F every 6 hours until ferment temp is 65 degrees. Gravity should be 1.012 at this point assuming healthy yeast, proper pitch rates, good extraction, etc.

This was lots of fun to brew today! Thanks for the great recipe. My first decoction and other than stepping to 168 F by accident after the first decoction it went pretty well. Hopefully it will still ferment out dry.

I will have to find a westvleteren 12 to compare side by side once its all done.

Anyone pick up bubblegum flavors with this? I'm about 8 days since brewing, held the fermentation temps at 81-82 for the suggested time and i'm down to 1.015. Taste is very good, but the bubblegum flavor is much more pronounced than my last sample a few days ago. Krausen dropped, but still a lot of yeast in suspension. As of now i'm leaving it at ambient, which is around 70.

I never got bubblegum flavors, then again I didn't taste it until almost 3 months after brewing. Between the long bulk aging time and being a slug about bottling I didn't get a taste until after the bottles were all carbed up.

Could some of you explain in more detail your decoction process for this beer?

I read some articles from a google search (after I already tried making once) which specify to heat the first decoction to 150 F and let it rest for 20 minutes prior to boiling to allow starch conversion before enzymes are denatured. After that they say to boil for at least 15 minutes.

I did not infer this from the OP recipe description so maybe it is assumed that I would know to do this since, from what I have read, it is how decoction is done.

Those who have had successful results with this recipe, please comment on your decoction technique. Specifically did you heat the 1st decoction to 150 and allow a rest before boiling? and how long do you boil each decoction?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

I am going to attempt the traditional recipe next weekend, BIAB style. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I'm down to 1.013 after about 2 weeks. Transfered to a keg today for conditioning. The bubblegum flavor has faded a bit over the last week- much more in the way of dark fruits now. Luckily the holidays are coming up; they will provide the distraction i need to keep my hands off of this for couple months.

6 Days of fermentation done and it has slowed down quite a bit so removed the blow off tube and capped with air lock. Took a sample before re-capping and its reading 1022 corrected for temp (OG 1100). Hopefully I will get another 6 points down for it to dry out, although did not taste overly sweet now and balanced the alcohol heat pretty well. Yummy! Will be making this more than once.

megalomani said:

6 Days of fermentation done and it has slowed down quite a bit so removed the blow off tube and capped with air lock. Took a sample before re-capping and its reading 1022 corrected for temp (OG 1100). Hopefully I will get another 6 points down for it to dry out, although did not taste overly sweet now and balanced the alcohol heat pretty well. Yummy! Will be making this more than once.

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I'd leave it a bit longer and keep the temp up. 1.1 to 1.016 would be 82% attenuation which is still rather sweet for this beer. 86% attenuation is your target which is about 1.013.

I don't understand something about the New World recipe. I have all the ingredients for it and will brew tomorrow or Friday.

It says only 6 gallons, flash at 159 to mash for 90min at 150. How does that calculate to getting 7.54 gallons out?

According to the mash-sparge calculator, I calculate I'll need to mash with 5.3 and sparge 5.1.

Can someone explain, please?

Dupe, see above.

Hi everyone,

just wanted to thank you all for this epic 50 page thread, which I just finished reading in its entirety. Ordered the ingredients for a variant of this recipe last night after having my first Westy 12, and promptly Googling for clones.

I've brewed all-grain for about ten years, but have taken an unplanned sabbatical to focus on wine making these past six years. This beer got me back into it!

KyPeN said:

I don't understand something about the New World recipe. I have all the ingredients for it and will brew tomorrow or Friday.

It says only 6 gallons, flash at 159 to mash for 90min at 150. How does that calculate to getting 7.54 gallons out?

According to the mash-sparge calculator, I calculate I'll need to mash with 5.3 and sparge 5.1.

Can someone explain, please?

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Just go with your normal mash/sparge routine that fits with your system. With the NW recipe, there's nothing "special" about the mashing technique.

saq said:

I'd leave it a bit longer and keep the temp up. 1.1 to 1.016 would be 82% attenuation which is still rather sweet for this beer. 86% attenuation is your target which is about 1.013.

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Thanks for the recommendation but to my disappointment it has not budged from 1020 after holding at 80 degrees an additional week. Probably a result of over shooting step 1 mash temps. It tastes good regardless so no loss. Will try again some day.

Well, my Pious that I brewed 6 months ago and spent $40 on had to be dumped. I left it to age at my mom's house and the airlock dried out. It got oxidized really bad and tasted like sherry. It actually still tasted pretty good, but I didn't feel like bottling it. I'm never bulk aging again.

RIP. I'm very sad.

I was wondering...how long do you age this in the bottle before it really starts to shine?

I aged it in the carboy for 2 months, and then pitched T-58 during bottling. Carbed and ready to drink in another 3 weeks.

The higher fermenting temps at the beginning is due to the belgian yeasts, correct? I was going to brew this again and try something different using Nottingham, so that would require your standard ferment in upper 60's from the get go, right?

Sorry in advance to you purists.

The fermentation temp and schedule is dictated by the Westmalle yeast.
You can't make this beer with Nottingham, it will end up a completely different beer too sweet and boring from lacking any of the Belgian esters that are required for making a quadrupel.
Making a beer like this with English yeast will have it kind of end up like an overly sweet old ale, both from the higher finishing gravity but also a low bitterness level. If you were to up the IBUs to 50-60 it'd probably be pretty good, but again we are talking a totally different beer either way that wouldn't resemble this beer at all.

what are you looking to get from this? it will definitely not be a quad...much less Westy 12, but different strokes for blah blah blah. If you want to have that delicious quad flavor, you really need to use a trappist yeast to produce that ester profile.

I'm not saying that using Notty will make a bad beer, but not a westy 12 clone. Notty will ferment clean in the lower 60's (no Belgian esthers) and may produce fusel alcohol flavors in the high-end of the temperature range (or if you pitch an inadequate amount of yeast).

if you are looking for a dry yeast, at least consider using T-58 (not really the right stuff, but more right than Notty).

Best of luck!

hadabar said:

I was wondering...how long do you age this in the bottle before it really starts to shine?

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I really wanted to comment on this because after seeing this thread pop up I decided I would grab a bottle and pop it open for tasting last night. I brewed on June 5, 2011.

I really liked the beer "young" from the start, but it was good, not the best beer ever. Based on the cost of the grain bill I pretty much was leaning on the, not going to brew again any time soon. In the begining the alc flavors were there but not overbearing. There was dark fruit, but not overbearing. Good brew, but $$ to brew (I did the new world).

So pan ahead to 6 months later when I cracked a bottle open last night. WOW. I have never seen a beer change this much over time.

When i poured into the glass I could smell a pronounced aroma, without even smelling the rim closely, this aroma lifted up an out readily where my face was about 2-3 feet away and I thought... **** it oxidized and that must be sherry notes. I took a closer smell and it was not, dark fruit, toffee and a slight almost roasty (burnt toffee roasty, slight coffee). I figured what the heck I will chew on it so I took a sip. Flavor was incredibly smooth. Alcohol flavor was not pronounced and it was incredibly... incredibly smooth. Rich dark fruit (sweet bing cherry reduced in cognac) and carmel toffee rounded flavors on the front end with a pleasant aftertaste. This stuff is fantastic aged at 6 months. It reminded me of the change in wines or ciders I make, never experienced that with beer before. My wife, who didn't like it young before, loved this one, had to grab my glass back!

Saq - my hat is off to you here. When i am looking for a quad to brew, this one is it. I would place this in the top five of my favorite beers I have brewed myself, and for me that is saying a lot.

This one will be a rebrew over the xmas break for certain.

Just wanted to add some anecdotal evidence to the mix. My batch had proper attenuation without either forced aeration or a yeast starter. The only "help" it was given was a hot water bath at 82F.

Time will tell if this was a wise choice, but pure O2 and a big starter are not necessary for attenuation alone, FWIW.

rama said:

Just wanted to add some anecdotal evidence to the mix. My batch had proper attenuation without either forced aeration or a yeast starter. The only "help" it was given was a hot water bath at 82F.

Time will tell if this was a wise choice, but pure O2 and a big starter are not necessary for attenuation alone, FWIW.

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Did you just pitch one tube or smack pack? That's less than 1/3 of the amount of yeast for a proper pitch at an OG of 1.095.

Slight under-pitching is OK, but that is way too little yeast IMO, even if you ended up at the right FG. I think you're risking big time off-flavors and harsh, solventy alcohol character.

Good luck.

Have you ever left the batch sitting on the yeast the entire time? Ive had it in primary for about 2 weeks @65 degree while away for christmas and was wondering if I could leave it the entire 7 weeks without any detrimental effects.
Tahnks,
Terry

tlsaudio said:

Have you ever left the batch sitting on the yeast the entire time? Ive had it in primary for about 2 weeks @65 degree while away for christmas and was wondering if I could leave it the entire 7 weeks without any detrimental effects.
Tahnks,
Terry

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Yeah don't worry about a secondary, unless you are concerned about clarity. It takes several months for signs of autolysis to show up. The phenols are pretty strong with this yeast and having extra yeast around to help clean those up actually may not be a bad thing?

My keg freezer is set around 40F, and I lack another fermentation chamber currently. Will I see any downsides of doing the cold aging in 40F as opposed to the closer-to-cellar 50F? I lack another option.

DeliriumTrigger said:

My keg freezer is set around 40F, and I lack another fermentation chamber currently. Will I see any downsides of doing the cold aging in 40F as opposed to the closer-to-cellar 50F? I lack another option.

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Just split the difference...set your freezer to 45F, and use frozen glasses until the Westy is done.

jagec said:

Just split the difference...set your freezer to 45F, and use frozen glasses until the Westy is done.

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Pure, unadulterated genius.

Bottled this up last night . . . pre-carb tasting was very, very good!

So, whats the latest version, or best, to date.
Are you still brewing a version of the original recipe? Oldworld, new world?

Hard to say. Best one I ever did was so far New World batch 1. In a week or so I'm brewing the following

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.75 gal
Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Estimations

Estimated OG: 1.091 SG
Estimated FG: 1.006 SG
Estimated ABV: 11.4 %
Estimated Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.065 SG
Bitterness: 37.9 IBUs (Rager)
Estimated Color: 36.8 SRM
Color
Brewery Information

Brewer: saq
Assistant:
Equipment: Blichmann 10g Kettle
Efficiency: 75.00


Measurements

Measured OG: 1.090 SG
Measured FG: 1.012 SG
ABV: 10.4 %

Total Grains: 17 lbs 15.4 oz
Total Hops: 2.00 oz


Mash Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 44.5 %
4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 22.3 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 3 8.4 %
12.0 oz Biscuit Malt (27.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.2 %
5.3 oz Aromatic Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.8 %
4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.4 %
2.1 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 7 0.7 %


Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 22.77 qt of water at 158.2 F 149.0 F 90 min
Fly sparge with 3.85 gal water at 168.0 F


Boil Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
2 lbs D90 Candi Syrup (90.0 SRM) Sugar 8 11.1 %
1 lbs D180 Candi Syrup (180.0 SRM) Sugar 9 5.6 %
1.00 oz Brewer's Gold [8.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 10 33.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 11 4.6 IBUs
1.00 Items Servomyces (Boil 5.0 mins) Other 12 -


Fermentation Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1.0 pkg Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [40.00 ml] Yeast 13 -


Fermentation

1/5/2012 - Primary Fermentation (18.00 days at 80.0 F ending at 80.0 F)
1/23/2012 - Secondary Fermentation (3.00 days at 80.0 F ending at 60.0 F)
1/26/2012 - Tertiary Fermentation (3.00 days at 60.0 F ending at 36.0 F)

Do a separate boildown of about 0.75 gallons of first runnings into syrup, should be able to add back to boil kettle before boil gets rolling.

saq said:

Do a separate boildown of about 0.75 gallons of first runnings into syrup, should be able to add back to boil kettle before boil gets rolling.

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I think I followed your recipe up until this part. What do you mean by this?

That looks good.
I'm going to try that one also.

You said you pitch at 64 degrees, then let the yeast self warm/rize to 80 degrees. What is the temp in your fermentation? How much of the rise is caused by yeast and will they hold it?
My room temp in usually low seventys this time of year. I have a frige that I usually cool to 67 degrees for most of my Ales. Will I need to put a heater in it?
thanks in advance, Layne

I'm brewing the old world again. Well at this point I guess I can only say that I'm brewing a recipe that has been inspired by the old world recipe. I'm using franco belges pils and vienna malts. Then I have some Candy Syrup Inc D180 and D90 to toss in there. I am using French Strisselspalt hops and Legacy hops. The yeast I'm using is East Coast Yeast Belgian Abbaye. I should get 8.5gal into the fermentor today.

I plan on fermenting in a waterbath that I can drop an aquarium heater into. I will likely let this one free ride and maybe hold it at the height of fermentation temp or just below there. I will then transfer it onto the last 1.5lbs of syrup which will be D90 in this case. I do not plan on aerating it but I am still in the air on that.

Boiling down the first runnings into a syrup sounds like a good idea. That may give some of that sugary complexity that I felt the new world was missing.

I've got four bottles of real W12 coming in the mail, so I'll be able to do some real A/B with my next batch. ;-)

Layne said:

That looks good.
I'm going to try that one also.

You said you pitch at 64 degrees, then let the yeast self warm/rize to 80 degrees. What is the temp in your fermentation? How much of the rise is caused by yeast and will they hold it?
My room temp in usually low seventys this time of year. I have a frige that I usually cool to 67 degrees for most of my Ales. Will I need to put a heater in it?
thanks in advance, Layne

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My room is typically very cold, about 65 degrees or so, lower at night, slightly higher during the day and I pitched at 65.

The heat generated by fermentation alone was enough to raise to the temperature to about 80 degrees or so. Once it began to drop, I'll helped keep it up with a space heater.

For the current batch (it's a variation on west 12) I am brewing I am using a temperature controller and a heat wrap. It's been 26 hours since pitching and the temperature is already up to 72 degrees without any assistance.

My beersmith says 37 SRM, very close to yours.
That seems pretty dark to me.
Is this right? I don't remember the 12 being that dark.

Boiling down into syrup
That means take .75 gallons of runnings from the mash into a separate (pref a big 3.5-5gal pot) and boil it down until so much has evaporate that it starts to burn and bubble. At this point it will look like syrup and you'll have less than a pint to pour into the kettle. Its like what you do with strong scotch ales.
I've done quads like this before at 30 SRM and its too light in color. 35 SRM or higher for sure.