Trouble with Tripples or How I learned to brew a Westmalle Clone without worries

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TrickyDick

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Pardon thread title puns...

Looking to brew a trippel soon.

Inspiration taken from the very limited commercial examples available to me.

Started to read up on the style: BYO recent article (Trippel Threat), BYO recipe for Westmalle Trippel, Clone Brews book, Brew Like a Monk book, and Brewing Classic Styles Book, plus a few threads here on HBT.

Here is what I've come up with: The different sources are all over the board.
I don't really want to plagarize content, but I do own all the above sources, and want to point out that there are differences between the varied references to the actual Westmalle recipe.

I consider BLAM (Brew Like A Monk - and yes I like BLAM as an acronym) to be probably most accurate, as there is documentation, footnotes, etc, and photos. The specs given match almost identically with BYO specs, differing in the SRM only. Clonebrews is rather far off the mark in comparison. Also the CB grist is off the mark with other sources to a degree.

The Grist seems to be 80% Pils 20% or close to it sugar. No mention of other fermentables. BLAM reports a step infusion mash and France sourced grain.

Hops seems to be variable, and they may blend different batches before bottling, to further confound. Styrian Goldings comes up in several sources as does Tettnang, and Saaz, which are both admitted to in the BYO article by the brewmaster or CEO. A few oddballs mentioned in BLAM that I don't see in other sources: Fuggles, Spalt Select, and unspecified Russian hops.

Fermentation is reported to be mid 60's pitch with rise to high 60's but not above 70's, followed by a secondary/conditioning period of at least 4 weeks depending on the source, and performed at pseudo-lagering temps, below 50º.

Mashing is reported, again, as a step infusion, and its hard to find details as the BYO recipe looks like it was written by a 5th grader with nonsensical numbers that require interpolation to understand. I can probably manage the mash however using the Trippel Threat article which is pretty succinct, but seems a temperature step mash may be adequate as opposed to infusion step mash. Clearly the CloneBrews mash seems out of whack.

What is left then in my planned Trippel brew is the hop additions.
After reading the BYO trippel threat article, seems that a single bittering addition would be appropriate to style. The BYO recipe indicated 15 and 5 minute additions however, and the CB book is concordant to a degree. It seems Styrian Goldings may be the bittering hops used. There may be small tettnang 15 min flavor and saaz 5 min aroma additions. This however is somewhat contrary to the trippel threat article (although the interviewed CEO/masterbrewer reportedly admitted to using Saaz and Tettnang and this is also reported by BLAM. Where and how they use the hosp however is not specified).

I've not brewed a trippel before, so would rather like to get it right. I am worried that my planned recipe might be heavy handed on late hops, and somewhat overly complex in the grist. I was thinking of modelling or clone attempt at the Westmalle brew first before I try mixing it up for in any future brews of this style.

I typically brew batches aimed at collecting 10 gallons of finished packaged beer. I was thinking of limiting any flavor 15 minute hop additions to .5 to .25 oz at the most, and ditto on 5-0 minute aroma hops. I have some Bohemian Floor Malted Pils, as well as "ordinary" german Pils malt (both weyermann) that I was planning to use for the grist, probably just the ordinary pils, plus clear candi syrup for the sugar. I was also planning to use the Safbrew T-58 yeast, though I am not committed to it. I have some mixed yeast slurry (WLP 550 & 500) from a previous Belgian brew that I could also use but with more effort to wash and re-populate. Hops I am looking for suggestions here.

Thanks for any recommendations and advice!

TD
 
I would say use the WLP 550 instead of the dry yeast. Since that is a second generation yeast, it will be happy and healthy and ready to go. Definitely wash it and do a starter. You will need tons of yeast. Also, you could toss a tiny amount of Aromatic malt for a bit of complexity. For adding the sugar, I would recommend adding it after 3-4 days of fermentation. This would be so the yeast doesn't eat all the simple sugars and get tired and go dormant. You can liken it to the yeast having dessert before dinner. They will chew through the glucose and then not have enough energy to break down the maltose, maltotriose, etc...

Cheers!
 
Sorry if I missed it but I've had a few homebrews and your post is long, do you have the planned recipe? You said you're worried it's overly complex in the grist but then you say you're just using pils malt and sugar. :confused:

I've done Jamil's recipe minus the small aromatic addition, which is essentially the tripel threat recipe plus a Saaz flavor addition. I would recommend it for a nice tripel to style and would be the Tettanang/Saaz combo you mentioned. Save some money on the candi syrup and go with table sugar. I've tried both and it makes no difference I can tell, and is supported in BLAM and that tripel article as well as what Jamil calls for. I do like the 530/3787 and have used them a lot. Otherwise I think your mixed slurry sounds good.
 
chickypad said:
Sorry if I missed it but I've had a few homebrews and your post is long, do you have the planned recipe? You said you're worried it's overly complex in the grist but then you say you're just using pils malt and sugar. :confused:

I've done Jamil's recipe minus the small aromatic addition, which is essentially the tripel threat recipe plus a Saaz flavor addition. I would recommend it for a nice tripel to style and would be the Tettanang/Saaz combo you mentioned. Save some money on the candi syrup and go with table sugar. I've tried both and it makes no difference I can tell, and is supported in BLAM and that tripel article as well as what Jamil calls for. I do like the 530/3787 and have used them a lot. Otherwise I think your mixed slurry sounds good.

Sorry, I tend to ramble..... And even worse with a few home brews last night.

My initial planned trippel recipe I think might be overly complex compared with what I've read the westmalle uses. Mine had 1% wheat, 9% Munich and 10% sugar, but I'm thinking that might be too heavy on the Munich. I read the trippel threat and the other sources after i had formulated my recipe, months ago, but getting ready to brew it in september. I'm thinking it needs revisions, and thought why not just brew in the westmalle style if I could find a legit clone attempt. The CB book is clearly foolish after reading the other sources.

My initially planned hop schedule I think also needs revisions. I had planned to bitter with hallertau, a 30 minute addition of Styrian goldings, and a flameout Saaz addition. The flameout addition seems inappropriate, especially since I had considered a rather large addition. Maybe I just do a mix of Saaz and tettnang for a bittering addition and a flavor addition around 20 minutes and skip aroma additions.

Where is the jamil recipe by the way?

My yeast I think could work, but it has not been well kept: sitting in fridge , unwashed, basically just collected from the primary (dubbel) back in may. In a sanitized jar with an airlock. Probably time for new yeast. Have no idea how to determine accurate cell count, and viability at this point from my old yeast. I have been increasingly thinking about doing yeast banking and slants and getting gear to do real counts, but I'm not there yet. Living in FL really puts a damper on the liquid yeast. It just plain too darn hot. No LHBS for me. Maybe I could have sent to my business for earlier delivery so its not sitting on a hot truck all day. Ice packs in a hot truck become heat packs.

Thanks.
See what I mean about the rambling. Maybe I need some Ritalin.

TD
 
Ah, okay. I've heard other questionable things from that CB book, someone bought me the first addition before I ever started brewing but I don't think I have it anymore. I would trust the other sources first and I agree the 9% Munich sounds high to me. I was referring to Jamil's recipe in Brewing Classic Styles (you have the book, right? page 240). If you need new yeast anyway I highly recommend the WL530(WY3787).
:mug:
 
Thanks again. Yes I have the book, ill check it when I get home. Just planning my brewing schedule for the year. I may postpone this brew I lieu of a cream ale for football season, and take a stab at the Trippel in October or November. On the once a month schedule, and might squeeze in an extra brew during November and December holiday weeks if I'm lucky.

Have not used 530 before. Will have to try. The trippel threat article suggests under pitching by 50-75% of recommended rates for increased ester production I believe. Planned to ferment at 64 with free rise up to 68. Ill need my fermentation freezer for this feat, even if the weather holds, and my freezer currently still fermenting the dopplebock, so postponing to October or November would be good for that reason as well. What fermentation scheme did you use? It didn't seem that the brewing classic styles book gets as in depth with technique compared with the trippel threat article did. Not all the BYO series highlighting specific styles are as well written as I think the trippel threat article was IMHO.

TD
 
With that strain I do something similar to what you are planning - pitch around 64-65 and slow rise to 69 or so. I actually don't underpitch and I oxygenate really well. I tried underpitching on a few big Belgians early on and wasn't all that crazy about the banana and ester profile (tried it with 3522 for sure and I think the 3787 as well). I've also tried fermenting the various strains hotter and I don't like the results so much either. I prefer the pear/apple fruitiness and light spice but minimal if any phenolics that I get from 530/3787 with a normal pitch rate, good oxygenation, and temps above. Something you may want to experiment with yourself.
I agree the tripel article is pretty helpful. Jamil also does the style profiles monthly for BYO in which he goes into more detail than in the book.
 
SiriusStarr said:
This is the greatest thread title ever. :rockin:

Hah! I knew I'd find someone!

Thanks for the pitching suggestions. Happen to know out of curiousity which issue in BYO has the trippel style profile column? I'm going to have to hit the stacks if not some can find it (if there is one..)

So I think my grist is going to be 80% pils and 20% sugar. I already have a bunch of the clear candi syrup I bought that's getting old and I want to use it up. Ill also add a about 4 oz wheat malt just to clean some house which will probably be undetectable at less than 1%.

Hops I think tettnang and Saaz with 530 WLP

Thanks for helping me get my head clear on this.

TD
 
So I think my grist is going to be 80% pils and 20% sugar. I already have a bunch of the clear candi syrup I bought that's getting old and I want to use it up. Ill also add a about 4 oz wheat malt just to clean some house which will probably be undetectable at less than 1%.

I'm always a fan of adding a bit of white wheat to pretty much all my house recipes, just for that bit of body.
 
You seem to be on track for your quest to brew a perfect Westmalle Tripel. I have done 3 of them so far and I'm finally on to something I think.
- definitely use 3787/530 yeast since its a Westmalle strain after all and great all around Belgian yeast for Belgian Blond and Dubbels as well.
- After some trial I found that little bit of wheat malt makes for better Tripel. I tried 80% Pilsner (Best Malz) + 20% table sugar as suggested in Tripel Threat but that beer was lucking something in complexity and it didn't do very well in competition with comments from judges mentioning luck of spice aroma. On my last attempt I added 0.75 lbs of white wheat, changed pilsner malt from Best Malz to Malsteries Franco-Belgies, replaced table sugar with 2 lbs of Golden Candi Syrup + 1 lb Simplicity, had 0.5 oz 10 min Saaz addition and upped fermentation temperatures to get more complexity from the yeast.

Last recipe just finished fermenting and taste really great at this point. I usually wait 4-6 months for my Tripels before I package them for consumption but it looks promising this time.
 
paraordnance said:
You seem to be on track for your quest to brew a perfect Westmalle Tripel. I have done 3 of them so far and I'm finally on to something I think.
- definitely use 3787/530 yeast since its a Westmalle strain after all and great all around Belgian yeast for Belgian Blond and Dubbels as well.
- After some trial I found that little bit of wheat malt makes for better Tripel. I tried 80% Pilsner (Best Malz) + 20% table sugar as suggested in Tripel Threat but that beer was lucking something in complexity and it didn't do very well in competition with comments from judges mentioning luck of spice aroma. On my last attempt I added 0.75 lbs of white wheat, changed pilsner malt from Best Malz to Malsteries Franco-Belgies, replaced table sugar with 2 lbs of Golden Candi Syrup + 1 lb Simplicity, had 0.5 oz 10 min Saaz addition and upped fermentation temperatures to get more complexity from the yeast.

Last recipe just finished fermenting and taste really great at this point. I usually wait 4-6 months for my Tripels before I package them for consumption but it looks promising this time.


Thanks for the input!

I read the Jamil recipe. It's about what I've described a couple posts back. He adds 1.9% aromatic malt. I'm going to stick with malted wheat though, and maybe add a bit more than my on-hand stock of about 6 oz for 11 gal batch, to bring it up to about 1-1.5% of the grist.

As far as base malt, I have two sacks of Pilsner malt, both weyermann. One is the floor malted bohemian pilsner, the other is their regular pilsner. Which would you recommend? I think the floor malt is slightly darker, but I'd have to do some digging around to find out.

What is "Simplicity" by the way?

TD
 
I've underpitched tripels with 3787 before. What I gained in esters I lost in under-attenuation and a touch of higher alcohols. I pitched an appropriate amount of yeast on the last batch and it's come out much better. But as always, YMMV.
 
Thanks for the input!

I read the Jamil recipe. It's about what I've described a couple posts back. He adds 1.9% aromatic malt. I'm going to stick with malted wheat though, and maybe add a bit more than my on-hand stock of about 6 oz for 11 gal batch, to bring it up to about 1-1.5% of the grist.

As far as base malt, I have two sacks of Pilsner malt, both weyermann. One is the floor malted bohemian pilsner, the other is their regular pilsner. Which would you recommend? I think the floor malt is slightly darker, but I'd have to do some digging around to find out.

What is "Simplicity" by the way?

TD

Simplicity is a product from Candi Syrup Inc. Lightest of syrups they offer. In regards to Pilsner malt, I don't think you would notice much difference. They both high quality malts and I never used floor malted pilsner before so can't comment on that
 
I'll put another vote in for WLP530, it's the Westmalle yeast and makes a great trippel. Also, I've found that the light candy syrups are a waste of money, they don't offer any advantages over plain table sugar. The dark candy sugars are great, though.
Here's a link to the Jamil Show on the Brewing Network, where they go into great detail about brewing a trippel:
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Jamil-Show/Belgian-Tripel-The-Jamil-Show-11-17-08
 
Tombstone0 said:
I'll put another vote in for WLP530, it's the Westmalle yeast and makes a great trippel. Also, I've found that the light candy syrups are a waste of money, they don't offer any advantages over plain table sugar. The dark candy sugars are great, though.
Here's a link to the Jamil Show on the Brewing Network, where they go into great detail about brewing a trippel:
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Jamil-Show/Belgian-Tripel-The-Jamil-Show-11-17-08

Thank you for the link. Ill try and check that out when I have a moment.
I happened to have several clear candi syrup containers for several years. I bought them and then went on sort of a brewing hiatus. I had forgotten I had them, and have never used them. I suspect you are probably correct about their comparison and cost relative to table sugar, but since I already have them, I may as well use them.

TD

Edit- wow. Listened to the podcast. I think I am scarred for life. Picked up a few tidbits of helpful knowledge. Like an O&A show gone wrong.
 
Though I have the clear candi on hand to use for this brew, I was wondering about using honey instead of sugar.

I don't think I will do it, but It occurred to me that it'd probably work nicely and might contribute some nice flavor to the beer. Might be misplaced though, and sis boy better suited to a BSGA instead of a trippel with some fruit flavors of the orange blossoms coming through from the awesome orange blossom honey I've got. Plus it'd really make the beer bone dry.

Just curious.

TD
 
How did the beer turnout with the "older" clear syrup? I have some clear too that is prob 2 years old. I wonder if it oxidizes? Mine has yellowed a bit visibly.
 
I haven't brewed it yet. Been too hot here, and I have too much homebrew on hand to justify brewing again. I cancelled my planned september brewday. Have two days in October though. the clear candi looks fine. I suppose I should taste it before using it though. TD

Edit
Brewing this on the 20th
Ill post my recipe once I have it nailed down.
 
Sunday is the day

24# pils
0.5# aromatic
Between .25 -1# white wheat malt
5 # clear candi syrup. Oddly does not appear darkened. Straw colored. Added on day 2-3 post pitch.

Tettnanger @60
1oz Saaz at 10 or 15
Shooting for 34-35 IBU

Got my 530 WLP. gonna build a small starter 2-2.5 qt. over 80% viable pitching at 64°.

That's the plan anyway

TD
 
chickypad said:
:confused: clear candi syrup isn't supposed to be dark.

Recipe looks good, going with Jamil's it looks like.

Yeah I was mentioning that (about color) because someone mentioned using older clear candi syrup and I think they said it had oxidized to a slightly darker color. Not sure. No but my stuff looks good. If I hadn't already had it on hand I would have used a bag of grocery store brand sugar.

Question for everyone. I have a sack of weyermann Pils and another sack of the weyermann floor malted pils. Any suggestions on which to use? I have read the floor malted has the mellowest flavor. Probably splitting hairs here.

Also wondering about water chemistry with a very light wort. I have a newly acquired ph probe. Could add some acid malt or just phosphoric acid until I get into my target ph.

I was thinking mashing at 140 for 60-90 then raising to 150 if its not fully converted by 90 at 140. Give it 20-30 at 150 and check again then mash out.

Thanks!!

TD
 
I don't measure pH, but the water primer suggests using 2-3% acid malt in light grists. I just brewed a tripel with 3787 (I hope it doesn't get too hot while I'm at work) and I used a soft water profile and 3% acid malt.
 
Do you have your water report? It's a little bit of shooting in the dark if not. A little acid malt is probably good for most profiles but if you have very alkaline water it may still be hard to hit your target pH on a tripel. On the other hand I have very soft, low alkaline water - it's almost RO water (alkalinity is 12). I will use about 1% acid malt in the very lightest beers, but in my last tripel I didn't because I ran out. With just a little calcium chloride the pH was still under 5.5.
 
Doing a Rochefort 10 clone today. Using 2 oz. acidulated malt in 5 gals. Will use RO water for 1/2 of "water bill". Other 1/2 filtered well water 150 ppm solids, 7.8 pH. Don't have a meter gotta just go with it. Homemade candi sugar always an adventure. Last of the fresh hops from the garden light and bitterness only. 2 liter starter of 1.060 wort from stout 2 days ago with the Wyeast 1762 cranking away. Gonna ferment it at 65 for a week then go from there.
 
chickypad said:
Do you have your water report? It's a little bit of shooting in the dark if not. A little acid malt is probably good for most profiles but if you have very alkaline water it may still be hard to hit your target pH on a tripel. On the other hand I have very soft, low alkaline water - it's almost RO water (alkalinity is 12). I will use about 1% acid malt in the very lightest beers, but in my last tripel I didn't because I ran out. With just a little calcium chloride the pH was still under 5.5.

Yeah I have a water report. It pretty soft water, but I can also use RO or a blend. I can try the bru'n water page or Kai's SS and see what it says.

I have some acid malt and lots of water minerals if need be.

TD
 
OK,

Think I have my recipe pretty well locked in now.

Going to adjust my RO water to BLAM westmalle profile (p158 I think)

Grist for 11gal
22.5# Pils (weyermann) I may opt for the floor malted sack
8 oz acid malt
8 oz aromatic malt
4 oz white wheat malt

After day three in fermenter I'll add 5# candi syrup clear, and 1 pound regular table sugar.

OG predicted at 1.083

Hops
4 additions
90 min Styrian goldings
45 minute tettnang
30 minute tettnang ( saw some folks using fuggles here. Supposedly westmalle uses spalt select which I may sub in here if I have any or split with 45 minute)
5 minute Saaz 1oz
39 IBU target

Using wlp530 to make a 2.5 L starter tonight hopefully. Got some nice fresh yeast, thanks Brian!! Going to pitch at 64 and then reset ferm freezer temp to 68 with thermowell and let it free rise, adding sugar on day 3.

Mash still undecided. Probably this schedule

113° x 15 min
144° x 35-45 min
158° x 25 min
172° x 5 min

I'll need to acidify my water as well.

Carbonated to 4 volumes. Not sure if I want to go through the hassle of bottling this.

TD
 
Actually, I think the mash needs revision:

Dough in at 113 and immediately begin to heat to 140 and hold for 75-90 min,
Then raise to 158 for 15 min, and a mash out

TD
 
Carbonated to 4 volumes. Not sure if I want to go through the hassle of bottling this.

TD

This thread is two months old and you have obviously put a lot of research and work into this recipe. Why not go all the way and bottle this beer. Just my opinion of course; I'm sure it would come out just awesome in the keg. But, for me, a well made tripel ages so much better when bottled conditioned. :mug:

-Mike
 
This thread is two months old and you have obviously put a lot of research and work into this recipe. Why not go all the way and bottle this beer. Just my opinion of course; I'm sure it would come out just awesome in the keg. But, for me, a well made tripel ages so much better when bottled conditioned. :mug:

-Mike

Agreed.

Lately, been having issues achieving appropriate carbonation with belgians brew in the bottle. Seems I do it all right, then its not the right CO2, and the corks (I have a separate thread on this) always need a corkscrew, never "mushroom" etc.

However, I was planning to split this with a friend, but he had to bail (Honey Do List) on the brew day (Tomorrow). Therefore, It might be that I bottle half and keg half. Will see.

Crushed the grain tonight, and have everything ready to go for tomorrow morning. I have a lot of extra keg management work to do tomorrow during brewing, but the long 140º rest should provide time for this.

Thanks for the support!

TD
 
Agreed.

Lately, been having issues achieving appropriate carbonation with belgians brew in the bottle. Seems I do it all right, then its not the right CO2, and the corks (I have a separate thread on this) always need a corkscrew, never "mushroom" etc.

TD

I hear ya, I've had the same problems. I have had some over carbonated Belgian beers in the past and stubborn corks! (Can you link that thread?)

Anyway, I'm also brewing a Westmalle 'clone' today. When I started researching it I came across this thread, it has been very helpful! Good luck, today.

-Mike
 
Actually, I think the mash needs revision:

Dough in at 113 and immediately begin to heat to 140 and hold for 75-90 min,
Then raise to 158 for 15 min, and a mash out

TD

Can you elaborate on why you are mashing for soo long at 140 and then mashing so short at 158?

I'm a novice brewer but isn't it the case that if you mash around 148 to 150 for 90 minutes you'll achieve the same results?

If not could someone help me with my mashing theory? Thanks!
 
Can you elaborate on why you are mashing for soo long at 140 and then mashing so short at 158?

I'm a novice brewer but isn't it the case that if you mash around 148 to 150 for 90 minutes you'll achieve the same results?

If not could someone help me with my mashing theory? Thanks!

Well, the idea is to create a very highly fermentable wort, with the fewest unfermentable dextrins possible. I'll probably only go 60-75 minutes at that temp. Bud light for instance has reportedly over 2 hours mash at 140's somewhere (little foggy on that right now). At the lower mash range the reactions are slower, hence need for longer mash at lower temps. I'm sure I could get by with even a single infusion at like 150-152, but I'm trying to do like the Belgians here.

TD

TD
 
For most average beers, a single infusion is fine, but a multi-step is slightly different and can achieve things on the extremes that a single-infusion can't.
 
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "things"? More fermentable sugars at the low end?

Briefly,


There are two main saccharification enzymes working in the mash, Beta Amylase and Alpha Amylase. One works ONLY at the ends of the starches, and works somewhat slower than the other. It must halt its chewing off simple sugars from ends of starches when it comes to certain branch points, and other regions. Generally, it produces a more fermentable wort, when mashing in the lower range, where this enzyme is more active. I believe this is the Beta Amylase, but I'm too lazy to look up and confirm.
Conversely, the alpha works faster, and optimal at slightly higher temps, and cleaves the starches everywhere*, not just at the ends. I believe it cannot operate as close to the starch branch points (think of starch like a large rope of simple sugars linked together with several knots of tiny to short "branches" coming off at varying points. The enzymes break up the starch into simple sugars that can be processed by yeast), resulting in longer "limit dextrins".
I believe that a "limit dextrin" is a starch molecule which cannot be broken into smaller units by the malt enzymes, and cannot be processed by the yeasts, and results in "body" and higher residual FG than a mash processed where the beta amylase is more active, resulting in fewer, and smaller limit dextrins, and therefore, a more highly fermentable wort, with a lower potential FG.

Anyway, I could be totally off base, but this is my understanding of the subject.

As an aside, I finished the brew (and need to go clean up still!)
Hit 1.055 OG PreBoil wort Gravity 14 gallons (expected 13.5 Gal, and abandoned at least a half gallon in the mash tun), boiled down to 11.5 (with at least a gallon of loss). Didn't measure the post boil. The sugar gets added after day 2-3 of fermentation so I expect it to hit the right OG. Strangely, the mash seized up frequently, so I added some Rice Hulls. Still ended up with a bunch of teig and a bunched up mash during the lauter. odd.

TD

Finished clean-up. Hard to measure volume in the SS fermenter tank. Seems like I did well. Used the pH meter and Bru'NWater SS and it was SPOT ON with the actual measured pH! The OG is perfect to the recipe, pre sugar addition, which I will do on day 2 or three.

My therminator is not working well. I think it is a combo of the march pump pressure and the repeated clogging of the plates. Today I flushed with HOT PBW water for over 2 hours, half in each direction. I think I am probably going to switch back to a Chillzilla style chiller and recirculate the boil until its all chilled, perhaps with an immersion chiller going as well. My water in FL is not very cold, mid to low 70's usually. ICE is generally always required. Today's brew is in the fermentation freezer waiting to hit temp before I can pitch.

TD
 
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