Adjusting pH

I have been doing a lot of research lately and mash efficiency and water condition seem to be very closely related. I can do the tests to check PH but what is very one using to adjust PH. I need to lower mine.

Really it depends on your water profile. If you have enough minerals in
your mash and want to lower pH, then adding Latic or some other acid
wil do it better than overloading the mash with more minerals.
If your water is lacking ca then gypsum could be added to increase calcium
and sulfate.
Anyway it is all here http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html

Thanks. That's more than I bargained for.

Ive used calcium cloride in my mash and lactic acid in my sparge water to knock down high ph, but it really does depend on your water profile on what's best to use.

or take the easy route: pH 5.2 added to the mash water.

http://www.brewmasterswarehouse.com/product/0101891/five-star-52-ph-stabilizer-1-lb

FTW

5.2 doesn't buffer at 5.2 (it's more a capping of the pH at 5.8), doesn't do anything against low mash pH and adds sodium along with it's phosphate.

Don't go there. pH strips, a water test (even the ones for aquariums) and brewing salts are a better investment.

Kai

Kaiser said:

5.2 doesn't buffer at 5.2 (it's more a capping of the pH at 5.8), doesn't do anything against low mash pH and adds sodium along with it's phosphate.

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5.2 Buffer is a standard buffer solution - combination of monosodium phosphate (acid) and disodium phosphate (base). So, it does buffer in both directions.

OP, I agree with Kaiser. I recommend you get within the pH ballpark (e.g., Palmer's water spreadsheet) by adjusting your tap water with RO water and/or brewing salts.

However, I recommend you use 1 tsp (not 1 tbs) of 5.2 Buffer for a 5 gallon batch strictly as a safety net. The mineral content in tap water varies throughout the year and 5.2 Buffer is cheap insurance against any swings.

Wow, more controversy. I just want it to be as easy as possible. I don't want to have to take chem 101 to balance my water. I've been brewing for a long time and make very good beer. After spending some time here I thought that I could make some improvements. But i don't want to spend allot of time messing with the water. I need to keep it simple. Don't want to take the fun out of it.
Thanks for your help.

If you need to lower your pH, it's likely because you're brewing lighter beers right? Gypsum would work but only if you're also short on calcium and sulfate. Cutting with RO at a certain percentage would also work but before you do anything, you ought to get a water test done. If you're happy with your beer, you could just forget you ever heard of pH.

uechikid said:

Wow, more controversy. I just want it to be as easy as possible.

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tyhere is just nothing "easy" about water unless you just buy it and brew with it.

Maybe easy wasn't the right word. I should have used simple.

uechikid said:

Maybe easy wasn't the right word. I should have used simple.

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Nope. Water is complicated period. Even when doing something as presumably simple as blending you still need to know wher you are starting from and have the means to calculate the proper ratio.

Software can help but, only if you have a proper water chemistry analysis to key data from.

As complicated as it is, it really is another fun aspect to brewing. Adds more of the "Madd Scientist" to the cauldron.

uechikid said:

Maybe easy wasn't the right word. I should have used simple.

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This is as simple as it gets:

1. Obtain water report.
2. Plug numbers into Palmer's spreadsheet.
3. Adjust RO and salt parameters to desired profile (SRM).
4. Add RO, salts, and/or 5.2 Buffer to mash.
5. Brew!

Bobby_M said:

If you need to lower your pH, it's likely because you're brewing lighter beers right? Gypsum would work but only if you're also short on calcium and sulfate. Cutting with RO at a certain percentage would also work but before you do anything, you ought to get a water test done. If you're happy with your beer, you could just forget you ever heard of pH.

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I don't usually make lighter beers. Pale Ales and IPAs. This time of year I brew an old style dark beer. My pH is 8.0 - 8.4.

Again, thanks for all your help.

lamarguy said:

5.2 Buffer is a standard buffer solution - combination of monosodium phosphate (acid) and disodium phosphate (base). So, it does buffer in both directions.

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W/o making this a 5.2 discussion, I have experimented with that stuff and it does not buffer at 5.2 nor does it work in both directions. Phosphates themselves are poor buffers in the 5er pH range since the pKas of phosphate are 2.15, 6.86, 12.32. To make a good buffer you want to stay close to one of these pKas and 5.2 is not close at all to either 2.15 and 6.86. A lot of that skepticism about 5.2 is shared by A.J. deLange. If you are getting a pH of 5.2 by using this buffer, chances are that you would be getting the same pH w/o using it.

I do plan to publish my fidings once I have more data to back them up.

Kai

uechikid said:

I don't usually make lighter beers. Pale Ales and IPAs. This time of year I brew an old style dark beer. My pH is 8.0 - 8.4.

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You're measuring that pH in your mash or your tap water? I doubt your mash pH is up that high because even light base malts would buffer lower than that.

malkore said:

or take the easy route: pH 5.2 added to the mash water.

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i started using ph5.2 buffer a few batches ago, and i can really tell the difference. beers seem to be more malty, and the hops are coming through better. not to mention my efficiency has improved. overall a win for me. oh, forgot to mention i am on a well in north carolina.

Bobby_M said:

You're measuring that pH in your mash or your tap water? I doubt your mash pH is up that high because even light base malts would buffer lower than that.

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That's out of the tap.

Kaiser said:

W/o making this a 5.2 discussion, I have experimented with that stuff and it does not buffer at 5.2 nor does it work in both directions.

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To followup, I performed a quick experiment to test the buffering capacity of 5.2 Buffer.

Methods: One six oz glass of RO water (6.8 pH) and one six oz class of carbon filtered tap water (7.9 pH, 180 RA). Both samples heated to 78F and pH meter calibrated. RO water adjusted to 4.8 pH and tap water to 5.6 pH with lactic acid. Increasing quantity of 5.2 Buffer added to both samples, with pH samples taken after each addition.

Results: RO water sample pH rose to 5.3 and tap water sample pH fell to 5.5 after adding 3 grams (~1/4 tsp) of 5.2 Buffer. The specifics are:

1. water baseline: RO - 4.81, Tap - 5.63
2. 1 gram addition: RO - 4.92, Tap - 5.60
3. 1 gram addition: RO - 5.13, Tap - 5.56
4. 1 gram addition: RO - 5.22, Tap - 5.51

This [simplified] experiment shows that 5.2 Buffer does buffer in both directions (5.3 - 5.6 at 78F). At mash temperatures, that equates to approximately 5.1 - 5.4 pH. However, as you noted, it does not appear to "lock" the mash pH at 5.2 pH (as advertised). This revelation is a bit disappointing.

Kaiser said:

I do plan to publish my findings once I have more data to back them up.

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I look forward to seeing your results.

Lamarguy, thanks for running an experiment. One difference to my experiments is that you used a much higher concentration of 5.2 than what is used in the mash.

Kai

I tenatively jump in here - only a very newb. AG brewer but I'm in the midst of my first water tweeking and I have a fairly extensive chemistry background so I humbly ask:

With your steps that say 1 g addition you are meaning an 'additional' gram to the gram already there correct? You didn't run 4 identical trials so I'm pretty sure that is what you meant. So you adjusted the samples first with lactic acid to get them closer to the range, was that to simulate a particular grain addition? We are concerned with the pH after dough in correct? Is the pH 5.2-5.4 necessary during strike? Or is it necessary after dough in as the mash begins? The formulation of 5.2 may interact with the grist slightly different than just in plain water. Did you run a control, water at 5.2 and then add 5.2 powder to that sample?
As Kaiser pointed out buffers buffer to their pKa's. Buffers can be mono, di, tri protic allowing them the opportunity to buffer at 1 to 3 pKa's. The trick is to find a buffer that works in your medium. It has to least effect the surroundings, in our case it can't poison us or make our brew taste off and it has to have a pKa close to where we want to be. That's out of the book, but the other environmental variables play a huge part in the final pH regardless of the actual pKa of the buffer. Is 5.2 used by pros or is it a recent addition to the hb world? It's funny I have my first jar of it which I was considering using this weekend but my procedure would/will be to add my grain to my mash tun water, dough in and then take the pH. If necessary use some 5.2 but now you have me thinking (trouble) if I first condition my water to match a profile, the later addition of 5.2 will mess that profile up, no? Man this can get really complicated. Plus, and I hate to add this, NaCo3 is present and it is its own buffer. Dueling buffers...

Kaiser said:

Lamarguy, thanks for running an experiment. One difference to my experiments is that you used a much higher concentration of 5.2 than what is used in the mash.

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I forgot to mention that I tasted both water samples after the experiment and both had a noticeable "salty" flavor. So yes, I certainly overdosed.

I recently brewed a batch of Yooper's Dead guy ale and tested my mash ph throughout the rest. It was constant at 4.6 according to my test strips. How does this effect my beer and conversion? I was hoping for a higher conversion efficiency.

5.5 gallon batch
Conversion eff = 90.8
Eff into kettle = 76.3
Lauter eff = 82.6
Eff into fermenter = 71.2

I added 1 tbsp of 5.2 and 1 tbsp of gypsum to my good tasting but soft tap water. I added the additions in the mash tun before the grains while the tun was preheating.
Mashed in with 5.25 gallons, fly sparged with 3.75 gallons.
I conditioned the 14 lbs of grain with 4 oz of room temp tap water before crushing.

Netflyer,

Great to have a chemist here. And being one you shouldn’t have a problem getting up to speed on water chemistry and stay away from 5.2. In short: the mash pH is a result of the balance between the acidity of the malt and the water’s alkalinity. It is a fairly linear process and akin to what you would see in a titration curve around the pKa of a weak acid. The more acid you have the lower the pH will be and the more alkalinity you have the higher the pH. We aim at a pH of about 5.4-5.6 tested in a cooled mash sample. But as low as 5.2 and as high as 5.8 should work too.

Yes, 5.2 will mess up your water profile.

Lamargy,

You should try the following experiments:
- prepare RO water with a realistic amount of 5.2.
- test its pH
- now add small doses of lactic acid. and record how much you added (by volume or weight) and the resulting pH. Keep adding until the pH gets to 4.0. Using lactic acid you won’t be able to get much lower than 3.7-3.9 since it is a weak acid.
- in another sample of that water add small doses of 1% NaHCO3 water (baking soda 1% by weight) and keep track of resulting pH and amount added.
- do this until you get to a pH of 8. You won’t be able to get much higher than that

This process is called titration and the resulting curve where you plot the pH over the amount of acid and base that was added is a titration curve. In this curve you should see where pH buffer(s) of the tested solution are. Ideally you want to do that with strong acid and strong bases. But I’m not sure how confident you are at handling muriatic acid (HCl) and caustic soda (NaOH) solutions. I dilute mine to a weak strength but I still have to start with rather dangerous stuff.

Repeat the same test with a mash at 2 qt/lb. A thin mash works better since it is easier to stir. You should prepare the mash at 150F with RO water and 5.2, let it mash for 10 min and then cool to 70-80F before titrating 2 samples of it.

These are the experiments that I did and I’m certainly interested in peer review.

Kai

I must say I love the info on this place .... I'm a new AG brewer and am interested in hearing more, I just did a batch with 5.2 prior to seeing this .... we'll have to see how it turns out.

Kaiser said:

W/o making this a 5.2 discussion, I have experimented with that stuff and it does not buffer at 5.2 nor does it work in both directions. Phosphates themselves are poor buffers in the 5er pH range since the pKas of phosphate are 2.15, 6.86, 12.32. To make a good buffer you want to stay close to one of these pKas and 5.2 is not close at all to either 2.15 and 6.86. A lot of that skepticism about 5.2 is shared by A.J. deLange. If you are getting a pH of 5.2 by using this buffer, chances are that you would be getting the same pH w/o using it.

I do plan to publish my fidings once I have more data to back them up.

Kai

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This has always bugged me about 5.2. In all my buffer making tables, the typical ranges for phospate buffers is 5.8 to 8.0 with the extremes being mostly monobasic, versus mostly dibasic. How could the pH be even lower? There would have to be some other salt in there, but the ingredient list doesn't indicate that. Never have checked the pH of a sol'n of 5.2.

Now an acetate, or a citrate buffer could work nicely.

Kai's suggestion on titration is on the mark. You want a solution of 5.2, and then add your test compounds to that and monitor pH. The other way around, you are basically measuring how much 5.2 it takes to compensate for whatever amount of material you previously added to the water.

The resulting plateaus on the curves should represent the pKa's of the buffer. So let me ask straight out, I have pH 7.8 tap water and rather high alk and calcium. What is my solution for brewing a low SRM brew? Lactic acid? Just measure the pH after the Maris Otter addition and adjust if needed? Adjust and don't try to buffer the pH? Or can I just not brew a light beer here? If yes to lactic acid, what is the rec. dosage/gal? I brew 5.25-5.5 gal batches with 7 gal boils (heavy evap here)

Kaiser said:

Repeat the same test with a mash at 2 qt/lb. A thin mash works better since it is easier to stir. You should prepare the mash at 150F with RO water and 5.2, let it mash for 10 min and then cool to 70-80F before titrating 2 samples of it.

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I'm brewing this weekend, so I'll probably conduct the mash test using phosphoric acid and baking soda.

Netflyer said:

So let me ask straight out, I have pH 7.8 tap water and rather high alk and calcium. What is my solution for brewing a low SRM brew?

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Dilute your filtered tap water with RO water until you obtain a low RA (e.g., RA <= 50). Most likely add some calcium salts (further lowering the RA) to adjust the chloride/sulfate ratio. Mash-in and adjust the pH with phosphoric/lactic acid as necessary. Remember, the actual mash pH will be 0.2 - 0.3 units lower than your ~78F sample.

My water is hard (180 ppm bicarbonate, RA = 114), so for a light SRM (< 8) beer I usually dilute with 70% RO and add 3/4 tsp of calcium chloride to balance the chloride/sulfate ratio. I routinely hit a pH of 5.4 - 5.5 @ 78F with this profile.

Netflyer said:

The resulting plateaus on the curves should represent the pKa's of the buffer. So let me ask straight out, I have pH 7.8 tap water and rather high alk and calcium. What is my solution for brewing a low SRM brew? Lactic acid? Just measure the pH after the Maris Otter addition and adjust if needed? Adjust and don't try to buffer the pH? Or can I just not brew a light beer here? If yes to lactic acid, what is the rec. dosage/gal? I brew 5.25-5.5 gal batches with 7 gal boils (heavy evap here)

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How high are alk and Ca?

If the alkalinity is too high you may have to bring it down with dilution and then you can add lactic acid to bring the alkalinity down even further w/o lowering minerals like Ca and Mg.

Kai

My water is at Wards lab, I'll know exactly on Monday but on my less accurate test strip my pH is 7.8, calcium is 150ppm, TA is 150ppm.