IPA Recipe with hop burst

I'm coming to you all to look for wisdom. I wrote my own recipe once or twice... they were bad. I've made a new recipe now and i want your opinion. It's based off of a recipe i've been brewing for a while, but i want to try hop bursting, so i'm using it as a starting point.
Here's the original recipe:

8 # 2-row
2.5 # Munich Malt
.5 # Crystal 70L
.13 # Chocolate Malt
.5 oz Black Patent

1 oz willamette 4.8% pellet 60 min
.75 oz centennial 9% pellet 30 min
.5 oz willamette 4.8% pellet 20 min

mash at 154 for 60 mins
45 IBU

Now, I want the new one to be a bit maltier, have the same abv, be much hoppier, have a bit more mouth feel. Also there was a taste i like in the background of that beer that i can only describe as toasty which i want to bring out a bit. here's what i wrote up.

7 # 2-row
2.5 # Munich Malt
1 # Crystal 70L
.5 #Toasted 2-row
.5 # Flaked Oats
.13 # Chocolate Malt
.5 oz Black Pattent

3 oz Willamette 4.8% 12 min
3 oz Centennial 9% 6 min
1.5 oz Willamette 4.8% 4 min
1 oz Nugget 13% 4 min

Mash at 158 for 60 min
72 IBU

So i figure this beer will smack you in the face with hop aroma, and have some nice maltyness to balance out the tastes once you start drinkin it, and be rounded out with better mouth feel from the oats. I know it may not be true to the IPA style between the colour it'll have and the oats in it, but it's my wish list in a beer... i think. Or have I gone horribly wrong here.
What do you all think?

I'm guessing you're going for a black IPA? 1# of 70 + the chocolate and black patent seems dark to me, but if you like the malt profile, more power to you.
I will say, on the subject of hops bursting - make sure you can chill the wort rapidly. Aroma and flavor are lost incredibly quickly when hops bursting.
I screwed up my first attempt at Jamil's Evil Twin by not cooling quickly enough, and it's too malt heavy.

Oh, and 158 for an IPA is madness. I wouldn't go higher than 152-153, especially with all the crystal.

wolfman_48442 said:

I'm guessing you're going for a black IPA? 1# of 70 + the chocolate and black patent seems dark to me, but if you like the malt profile, more power to you.
I will say, on the subject of hops bursting - make sure you can chill the wort rapidly. Aroma and flavor are lost incredibly quickly when hops bursting.
I screwed up my first attempt at Jamil's Evil Twin by not cooling quickly enough, and it's too malt heavy.

Click to expand...

I have a counter flow wort chiller. My pot will be empty in 5 or 6 minutes. will that be fast enough?
And i don't really care what colour it comes out as, I just know i liked the flavor of the original. I added the additional crystal to help add some maltyness, and hopefully some head retention. Was i wrong to do that?

I'm also inexperienced when it comes to writing hop schedules... so if anyone has some input on that, i'd love to hear it.

You know, now that I put your recipe in Beersmith, the only thing I think you might want to change is to increase your 2 row to 10# or so, since as posted your OG is on the low side, and your color and hops numbers are on the high side of the style, just to balance it a bit. It would also help to get your bitterness (IPU/SG) ratio down a bit to about .81, since you mention that you like a bit more maltiness.
Really up to you, and I'd be happy to drink the beer you brew from this. It looks like it'd be darn good. I'd still mash it way lower than you posted, however

wolfman_48442 said:

I'd still mash it way lower than you posted, however

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What would mashing this high do that i wouldn't want? Wouldn't it make it maltier? Is it just that it's over kill?
I'm still pretty new to this, and while i've got the broad strokes figured out i'm still missing the finer points.

Mashing higher does not necessarily produce "maltier" beers, it produces less attenuated beers. Malty flavors are derived primarily from the grainbill formulation (as in adding more munich malt/aromatic malt/melanoidin malt etc).

A combination of higher mash temps and modifications to the grist will make for a maltier flavor profile.

Very unique combination of hops you have there. I'd drink this thing too, whatever it is!

bigbeergeek said:

Mashing higher does not necessarily produce "maltier" beers, it produces less attenuated beers. Malty flavors are derived primarily from the grainbill formulation (as in adding more munich malt/aromatic malt/melanoidin malt etc).

A combination of higher mash temps and modifications to the grist will make for a maltier flavor profile.

Very unique combination of hops you have there. I'd drink this thing too, whatever it is!

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Thanks for the feed back, what you said about the grain bill formulation is really useful to me.
As for the hop selection, I have some odds'n ends kickin around in my freezer, so i went through them, and this and decided it might be a good combination. I'm lookin forward to seeing what it tastes like as well.
Brew day's tomorrow! I'll let you all know how it turns out!

Here's the recipe as it after some alterations.

9 # 2-row
3 # Munich Malt
1 # Crystal 70L
.5 #Toasted 2-row
.5 # Flaked Oats
.13 # Chocolate Malt
.5 oz Black Pattent

3 oz Willamette 4.8% 12 min
3 oz Centennial 9% 6 min
1.5 oz Willamette 4.8% 4 min
1 oz Nugget 13% 4 min

Mash at 153 for 60 min
OG 1.07
72 IBU

With that my OG will be up near where wolfman_48442 suggested it should be. And i'm mashing at a more "sane" temperature. I'm using a slightly less attenuative yeast (wyeast 1056 before, wyeast 1332 now) than i did with the beer i based this off of, so a lower temperature will keep things from getting too crazy.
As mentioned earlier, i guess this would be a BIPA. the colour is way off for an IPA, but i don't really mind. I just know that i already like the beer made with the grain bill that it's based off of.

The 1332 will give you more fruitiness than the 1056, but in my opinion it will blend nicely with the rich malt and hops bitterness you have in the recipe.
Try and keep your fermentation temperature below 70F if possible, and I bet it'll turn out really good!

Let us know how it turns out!

looks like a really nice english brown ale, but with an IPA schedule. sounds interesting!

you may want to tone down your IBUs and move one of the hops to dry hop if you're trying to emphasize aroma, while keeping maltiness. maybe something more like

1.5oz nugget @15
3oz willy @5
3oz centennial @ flameout
1.5oz willy @ dry hop

dcp27 said:

looks like a really nice english brown ale, but with an IPA schedule. sounds interesting!

you may want to tone down your IBUs and move one of the hops to dry hop if you're trying to emphasize aroma, while keeping maltiness. maybe something more like

1.5oz nugget @15
3oz willy @5
3oz centennial @ flameout
1.5oz willy @ dry hop

Click to expand...

Agreed. This sounds like a much better schedule.

Being a hop lover and experimenting with well over 100 batches, I've found that boiling hops for any amount of time pretty kills aroma and ultimately flavor as more and more minutes tick by. No need to boil at all if you are looking for aroma, and I wouldn't boil for more than a minute or two if I didn't want to impart any bitterness and preserve as much flavor as possible.

dcp27 said:

looks like a really nice english brown ale, but with an IPA schedule. sounds interesting!

you may want to tone down your IBUs and move one of the hops to dry hop if you're trying to emphasize aroma, while keeping maltiness. maybe something more like

1.5oz nugget @15
3oz willy @5
3oz centennial @ flameout
1.5oz willy @ dry hop

Click to expand...

Thanks for the ideas. I've discovered that i'm not a huge fan of dry hopping, i don't like the harsh grassy flavours it puts in, but i am going to alter my hops schedule. I also noticed this morning that the IBU calculator i was using has 2 different formulas and that the one i used was innaccurate for what i was doing.

Here's what i figure now:

2 nugget 13% 15min
3 Willamette 4.8% 5min
3 Centennial 9% 5min
1.5 Willamette 4.8% flameout
61IBU

The IBUs are calculated using the other formula. I'm really not sure if that's accurate. Anyone wanna double check that for me?

endorphines said:

Thanks for the ideas. I've discovered that i'm not a huge fan of dry hopping, i don't like the harsh grassy flavours it puts in, but i am going to alter my hops schedule. I also noticed this morning that the IBU calculator i was using has 2 different formulas and that the one i used was innaccurate for what i was doing.

Here's what i figure now:

2 nugget 13% 15min
3 Willamette 4.8% 5min
3 Centennial 9% 5min
1.5 Willamette 4.8% flameout
61IBU

The IBUs are calculated using the other formula. I'm really not sure if that's accurate. Anyone wanna double check that for me?

Click to expand...

really? ive never experienced this, even with longer than usual dry hopping. hopefully you're willing to give it another shot someday, but in the meantime, id move more hops to flameout then to get more aroma. I'd either switch the two willy adds (~60IBUs) or move centennial to flameout (~48) or split it (~56)

as is, I get about 65IBUs (tinsenth), but depends which formula you use. none are truly accurate, so just choose one and stick with it. its all relative anyway.

Well yesterday was brew day, and this is what i ended up doing.

I was using a new thermometer, which as it turns out, kinda sucks. I ended up mashing very low, maybe 148 or so. When i realized this i raised the temperature to 153. so it got 148 for 60 mins, and 153 for about 15. I didn't end up doing a mash out because it screwed up all of my volumes.
Also, when I got to measuring out my hop additions, I found that my 2 oz bag of nugget only had 1.5 in it, so i stepped that addition back down to 1.5. I was worried about how long it might take for me to empty my pot, so i did my flameout additions once i'd gotten the pump hooked up. It only had a few minutes at a high temperature, so i don't think i lost much aroma at all. Here's the recipe as it ended up!

9 # 2-row
3 # Munich Malt
1 # Crystal 70L
.5 #Toasted 2-row
.5 # Flaked Oats
.13 # Chocolate Malt
.5 oz Black Pattent

Nugget 1.5 pellets 15 mins
Willamette 4 oz old whole hops 5 mins
Centennial 4 oz old whole hops 5 mins
Centennial 1.5 oz pellets Flameout
Willamette 2 oz Pellets Flameout

1tbsp Bakers Yeast 15 mins as yeast nurtient
1tbps irish moss 15 mins

OG 1.065
62.5 IBU

The whole hops were in a hop bag, and the pellets went straight into the pot. I squeezed as much liquid from the hop bag as i could... it was a huge bag once the hops soaked up some wort, and i didn't wanna waste that much. The pellets got sucked up by the pump and chilled with the rest of the wort.

This morning i cracked the lid on the primary and let out just a bit of pressure to get a smell of it. I only caught one quick wiff of it while i had it open, but it smelled heavenly. It was full of fruity, citrusy, spicy aromas, as well as a lot of yeast at this point, but from what i can tell, this yeast is going to compliment things well.
I definitely have my hopes up for this batch. I'll report back once i see how it all turns out!

Thanks for all of the input here.

Well it's done!... young, but done. the hop character is really something. Very strong, but pleasant, and it leaves an aftertaste that i rather enjoy. I think next time i make this i'll replace some of the hops with one which has some citrusy notes.
I think it fell a bit short of the calculated IBUs because of the rather old hops that made up some of the additions. Turns out that's good though, because the bitterness is right on, and the strength of the aroma is exactly what i was aiming for.
It still needs some more carbonation. I want it very highly carbonated because that will showcase more of the aroma as the head is dissipating.
It fermented out to 1.011. That puts it in at about 6.7% abv. Considdering 14oz of hops went into this, it's an extremely drinkable beer... I'm gonna have a hard time making this last.