Gueuze project...Spelt? Yeast?

Yeah I know it's going to be 3-4 years before I'm drinking it, but I'm planning on brewing my first lambic for it soon. I will be doing the turbid mash featured in Wild Ales, though a BIAB version. It seems reasonable to me honestly. But I'm wondering if raw spelt berries could be used instead of wheat? Spelt is supposedly closely related, sort of an ancient form of wheat.

For my first attempt I will probably only be using 1 and 2 year old lambics, not the 1,2, and 3 that Cantillon supposedly uses. I will be using a mixture of buckets for primary and better bottles or glass carboys for aging. Probably with some oak cubes that have been boiled and also used to oak something else first to get more tannins out.

Also, does anyone have recommendations for what commercial blend to start with? I'll be adding some dregs along the way for added complexity.

Thanks everybody!

No thoughts from anybody? I think I will try a 3 gallon batch with spelt and the turbid mash to practice and to see if my stovetop BIAB system can handle it. I have a very good gas stove with 2 of 4 burners being "power burners" and have no problem getting 7+ gallons to a good boil. Then perhaps a month after I do my batch with spelt I will do a full 5 gallon batch to have 2 going at the same time.

I was also thinking of using a wooden stave in the carboys. But I was thinking of just widening the hole on a rubber bung a bit and inserting a small diameter dowel or stave into that to prevent the carboy neck from cracking. My thought on this is to add some oak character, but also to let a small amount of oxygen in over time.

www.themadfermentationist.com

Search for spelt. He did a spelt saison, might be some good info there.

For what it is worth, I did a lambic about a month ago with rye malt instead of flaked wheat. It was a pain in the ass to lauter, but it tasted good going into the fermenter.

Yeah I've been digging through that site a lot. Really great blog and I've learned a lot from it for sure. One advantage of the BIAB thing is that I don't lauter. What kind of mash did you use with your rye lambic? Rye sounds like an interesting option as well.

I mash in a five gallon cooler.

I think spelt will be great in a sour beer.
My experience with spelt is that it is less gummy in the mash then wheat and definitely less then rye. It has a sharper flavor then wheat, all most like a few drops lemon juice in a glass of water (but not in a citrusy way). Got a 55# sack and brew a big saison 30% spelt 70% pils with wyeast 3711 and was really happy with they way it came out. I plan on pitching the bugfarm I just got with the same grain % plus some raw rye I have.

Where did you buy the spelt?

I got for country malt group, our club does group buys. It's Best, I think it was expensive like a $55 for the sack. Are you near NYC? If so I'll hook you up w/ some.

Nah, I'm in Wisconsin. I appreciate the offer, though!

I'm going to be using unmalted spelt, since for a lambic the traditional grain bill is about 65% malted barley and 35% unmalted wheat. Thanks for the input from both of you!

Did you do a standard single infusion mash urbanmyth, or did you go with a turbid or decoction mash or anything like that?

Just single infusion with a half pound of maltodextrin added to the boil.

The other positive for spelt, at least in my opinion, is it's softer than modern white wheat you'll buy. This factor makes milling it so much easier when you buy it as whole berries. I'm thinking about buying myself a bag of whole spelt from vitaspelt.com and just using it in place of all flaked/raw wheat in any recipe I use. I tend to make a saison and flip flop between rye and spelt at about 25% or a little more of the grist.

My next lambic brew will contain spelt rather than wheat. When I tried to mill the wheat it stopped my drill powered mill like someone engaged the brakes. Spelt mills so much better in my experience. Plus historically it's probably more like the wheat that was used back in the 1400s when that price or king said all brewers in Belgium need to use wheat to improve their beers (from wild brews). So my next lambic I hope to be using a bag of Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pils and raw spelt with a buttload of aged hops.

smokinghole said:

my next lambic I hope to be using a bag of Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pils and raw spelt with a buttload of aged hops.

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Have you put any thought into your mash regiment.

I've not used unmalted spelt. I really like the malted thought, I wondered after I bought it if it was worth the extra $25 per sack and if it would have detectable different from malted wheat and it really does. I'd like to hear you thoughts on raw spelt.

I will be doing turbid mash again. My last one was turbid mash and it turned out awesome. It fermented down to about 1.025ish quickly. Then after 8 months it dropped to 1.002. It's funky, sour, has a bit of tannin structure, slightly minerally with a nice citrus character. I am a don't mess with success type of guy.

The difference between malted spelt and raw spelt I cannot comment on. I've only ever used raw or flaked spelt. It has a nutty flavor that is wheat like, and it is different. I suppose too that spelt has different strains and so forth. So where it's grown and everything will have an impact on it's flavor compared to wheat just like any other agricultural product.

i don't have much to add, except that in the 'traditional' gueuzes there is nothing like any oak character as far as i can tell. not to suggest that you should't do whatever you want

when using spelt would the mash schedule contain a protien rest?

thanx
GD

Thanks for the info, smokinghole. I hope to be brewing this up in a few weeks and I'll be going back down to my old college town where I can get raw spelt berries at a health food store for pretty cheap, so I think I'm gonna go with this plan.

dinnerstick, I know that the traditional gueuzes and lambics don't really have an identifiable oak character (at least I agree with you on that one) but they are fermented in oak casks. Oak gives cellubiose for brett to munch on according to Wild Brews. A small oak dowel in a bung should also allow for just a bit of oxygen since a glass carboy lets in virtually none.

gizmodog, I'm not really sure. I used a small amount in a saison once and I actually used a cereal mash before the main mash, but I don't think that's even necessary. I believe normal mashing temps will gelatinize spelt. I didn't do a protein rest then but I'm not saying you shouldn't. Hopefully smokinghole will chime in.

Thanks for the input everybody!

I do a step mash for my saisons when I use spelt or any other cereal grain. With a turbid mash there is a protein rest temp built into the mash steps. So one way or another I am doing a protein rest. When I do step mashes I do a mix of infusions and decoction. I do decoctions on beers with Brett for sure. I think it helps retain some body and mouthfeel.

Think about it, turbid mash is a complex hybrid of infusion and decoction, if you ask me at least.

smokinghole said:

I do a step mash for my saisons when I use spelt or any other cereal grain. With a turbid mash there is a protein rest temp built into the mash steps. So one way or another I am doing a protein rest. When I do step mashes I do a mix of infusions and decoction. I do decoctions on beers with Brett for sure. I think it helps retain some body and mouthfeel.

Think about it, turbid mash is a complex hybrid of infusion and decoction, if you ask me at least.

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thanx for the feelback.........
GD

Any updates on this? Did you ever end up making it?

I did! I'm not going all the way for a geuze this time because of having no experience with sours prior. It's been sitting in the basement for 2 years at this point I just used WLP001 for the sacch strain, then just pitched dregs of orval, geuzes, lambics, and a jolly pumpkin beer.

Will probably bottle it around Christmas time, and try my first bottle in the summer of 2016 when I graduate from grad school.