Crtique my ipa

So I'm getting more into building recipes and haven't made the jump to all grain yet. So I would like to get some feedback for my off the cuff recipe.

1 lb 2-row
1 lb crystal 60
Steeped at 150-160 for 25 min and rinsed with .5 gallon of hot water

2.5 gallon boil
3 lb extra light lme ( 60)
3 lb extra light lme (0)

Hops
1 oz Columbus
1 oz centennial
1 oz simcoe

Combined all three oz and split into 7 equal parts and added every 10 min from 60 to 0

Dry hop are the same three hop combo for 7 days

Yeast
White labs California ale 1
1 liter starter pitched at 70
Fermented at 68

Looks pretty good to me!

2-row is a base malt, so it's really not suitable for steeping. It needs to be mashed to convert its starches to sugars. This in unlike crystal which has effectively already been mashed in the kernel and already contains sugars. Heavily roasted malts work well too as most of their potential fermentables have been roasted away and their character easily comes out during a steep.

Have you already brewed this or still planning?

Demus said:

2-row is a base malt, so it's really not suitable for steeping. It needs to be mashed to convert its starches to sugars. This in unlike crystal which has effectively already been mashed in the kernel and already contains sugars. Heavily roasted malts work well too as most of their potential fermentables have been roasted away and their character easily comes out during a steep.

Have you already brewed this or still planning?

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True- but if it was held in .5 gallon of 150-160 degree water, it'd be a mash- and it would convert. Conversion can happen in 15-20 minutes, so no problem.

Thanks for the input it's in the primary right now almost done going to dry hop Sunday.

Yooper said:

True- but if it was held in .5 gallon of 150-160 degree water, it'd be a mash- and it would convert. Conversion can happen in 15-20 minutes, so no problem.

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Yoop, I know you like to argue for arguments sake but c'mon, do you really want to encourage beginner extract brewers to use 2-row for steeping? I realize it's possible for it to convert in a short time, but what about the myriad of variables that go into mash chemistry? Do you think he nailed them? On top of that, the purpose of steeping grains in an extract batch is to add character, 2-row, character, really? I agree the beer will likely turn out fine, well, at least the 2-row probably won't hurt it. My point is 2-row isn't a good choice for steeping in future brews as it won't help either...

Demus said:

Yoop, I know you like to argue for arguments sake but c'mon, do you really want to encourage beginner extract brewers to use 2-row for steeping? I realize it's possible for it to convert in a short time, but what about the myriad of variables that go into mash chemistry? Do you think he nailed them? On top of that, the purpose of steeping grains in an extract batch is to add character, 2-row, character, really? I agree the beer will likely turn out fine, well, at least the 2-row probably won't hurt it. My point is 2-row isn't a good choice for steeping in future brews as it won't help either...

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Wow...arguing with a veteran of this site, good job.

Im sorry, "myriad of variables that go into mash chemistry"???
As in what, water temp and water/grain ratio?!?!....yea seems pretty complicated...

Using 2-row in a steep/mash helps to convert the small amount of starchs in the crystal. This also adds to gravity, a good thing.

Next time you want argue, for arguements sake, please do some research...

Not to mention,getting some sugar from the 2-row instead of extract will help lighten the color a little bit. Not a bad thing for a pale ale.

Then again, maybe he's right and partial mash brewing is just a myth ... ;p

I agree that 1lb of 2-row is o.k. to do, but I'm not sure what the point is.

It's not going to affect color or flavor in any meaningful way - though it'll add some gravity. It isn't needed to convert anything in the Crystal, either.

Since it isn't actually steeping and is basically a mini-mash, then I would at least use Munich or something that will actually add some character. If it had to a base malt, then Golden Promise or Marris Otter or something like that.

I really like Crystal 60, but 1lb is a lot. It will impart quite a bit of sweetness, so at least make sure IBU's are plenty high to counter-act it. If I was using 1lb of Crystal in an IPA, I'd go with a lighter Crystal - like 20 or 40. I usually limit my IPA's to .75lbs of Crystal if I'm using Crystal 40 or 20, and .5lbs if it's Crystal 60.

Ya the owner of my LHBS guided me that way also almost every kit I have bought either there or through Austin had had some 2- row or pale ale malt

Johnnyhitch1 said:

Wow...arguing with a veteran of this site, good job. Im sorry, "myriad of variables that go into mash chemistry"??? As in what, water temp and water/grain ratio?!?!....yea seems pretty complicated... Using 2-row in a steep/mash helps to convert the small amount of starchs in the crystal. This also adds to gravity, a good thing. Next time you want argue, for arguements sake, please do some research...

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If you think that temperature and water/grain ratio are the only variables in a mash, it is you who have some research to do my friend...

Johnnyhitch1 said:

Wow...arguing with a veteran of this site, good job.

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OMG - he disagreed with an HBT veteran!! That's crazy!!

So what's to issue with using 2-row. Is there any negative effects or is there just no reason. So should I have just used crystal or what?

the issue is that there really is no point in asking for critique of a recipe if it's already been a week in primary

ain't nothing you can change now, except the dry hop

let us know how it turns out

46andbrew said:

So what's to issue with using 2-row. Is there any negative effects or is there just no reason. So should I have just used crystal or what?

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It'll increase your gravity, but it isn't going to give much, or any, flavor or color. No big deal if you use it.

Next time, if you are going to steep/mash 1lb of base malt, at least use something with character that adds something interesting to your beer - like Munich or Vienna or something like that.

46andbrew said:

So what's to issue with using 2-row. Is there any negative effects or is there just no reason. So should I have just used crystal or what?

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From my perspective, and based on the beer you brewed, the only potential negative I can think of in using a base malt in the way you did is potential starch haze in the finished beer if the conversion doesn't finish. In the grand scheme of things, no big deal - and it will only happen if conversion is not completed.

If you keep the temp in the right range for the right amount of time (time and temp are flexible within a range) then the benefits of using some base malt in your steep/mash are numerous. The base will help convert any unconverted starches in the manufacturing of the crystal. The enzymes from the base will actually help break down the crystal sugars somewhat which will help your beer attenuate more, which, in turn, will leave you with not too sweet of a beer. It will add some gravity to the wort. It may even add a subtle flavor difference. So, IMHO, there are lots of benefits to using some base in with your steeping grains if done correctly. I wish someone had encouraged ME to use some base malt in my steeping grains within the correct temp range when I was first learning to brew - I may have made the move to all grain sooner and been happier for it.

Additionally, if you get familiar with performing your "steep" within the proper ranges for startch/sugar conversion then you are becoming familiar with the process of mashing which is a significant portion of all grain brewing. Stepping over to all grain will just be a matter of using more grain but the basics are the same.

Lastly, using some base in a proper steep/mash will allow you incorporate many more grains into your beers while maintaining the ease of using extract, which will allow you much more control over the final flavors of your beer. Your world of grain possibilities open up significantly as long as you understand the few simple differences between steeping and mashing.

But who the heck am I.... just some schmoe

BTW, I see nothing wrong with differing opinions in brewing technique. It doesn't matter with who your opinion differs. Just because something works for someone doesn't mean it will work for someone else, and it's okay to have an opinion (last I checked anyway )

Great feedback thanks for the tips and info ill let u guys know how this one turns out in about a month

stpug said:

From my perspective, and based on the beer you brewed, the only potential negative I can think of in using a base malt in the way you did is potential starch haze in the finished beer if the conversion doesn't finish. In the grand scheme of things, no big deal - and it will only happen if conversion is not completed.

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That was my thinking. It's done. It's over. There is no point now saying "Well, the two-row needs to be mashed, etc", since the beer is in the fermenter.

Did the two-row do anything? Well, no. But it certainly didn't hurt and it's not really a big deal.

Demus said:

Yoop, I know you like to argue for arguments sake but c'mon, do you really want to encourage beginner extract brewers to use 2-row for steeping? I realize it's possible for it to convert in a short time, but what about the myriad of variables that go into mash chemistry? Do you think he nailed them? On top of that, the purpose of steeping grains in an extract batch is to add character, 2-row, character, really? I agree the beer will likely turn out fine, well, at least the 2-row probably won't hurt it. My point is 2-row isn't a good choice for steeping in future brews as it won't help either...

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I would really love to know about these "myriad of variables" that would be a problem.

Keeping liquid in the amount of 1-3 quarts per pound at 150-160 degrees for 20-60 minutes would do the trick- it's really not that complicated. Is it necessary? No, but I don't think we need to scare beginners into "OMG- using grain is way too complex for me!" either. It's not. It's as simple as can be. If you can make tea, you can do a partial mash.


I don't care if people don't agree with me- after all, the point of a forum is for all of us to provide feedback, but I never argue "for argument's sake". I just feel it's important to point out things that are incorrect especially if it's not a big deal to do so. Information is why we're all here after all.

Yooper said:

I just feel it's important to point out things that are incorrect especially if it's not a big deal to do so. Information is why we're all here after all.

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Hey no worries. If you re-read my post though, I don't think I said anything incorrect . Our opinion on how to set up new brewer for success may differ, but I wrote nothing incorrect. Mash temperature and water /grist ratio are two variables in a mash. Others are water chemistry (calcium, magnesium, total alkalinity) and how it interrelates with mash pH. Flavor impact of chloride and sulfate and various other salts. Granted these aren't a huge concern for a small partial mash, but if his source water isn't suitable for mashing he could end up adding more starch and tannins than fermentables. I'm not trying to discourage anyone, rather to encourage a little research before tossing some grain into warm water...

Demus said:

Hey no worries. If you re-read my post though, I don't think I said anything incorrect . Our opinion on how to set up new brewer for success may differ, but I wrote nothing incorrect. Mash temperature and water /grist ratio are two variables in a mash. Others are water chemistry (calcium, magnesium, total alkalinity) and how it interrelates with mash pH. Flavor impact of chloride and sulfate and various other salts. Granted these aren't a huge concern for a small partial mash, but if his source water isn't suitable for mashing he could end up adding more starch and tannins than fermentables. I'm not trying to discourage anyone, rather to encourage a little research before tossing some grain into warm water...

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Sure, I understand. But if his source water isn't suitable for mashing, he probably shouldn't be using it in the first place. Conversion will happen, but even if not fully converted there wouldn't be any issues at all.

Even AHS' "extract kits" come with a couple of pounds of two-row. It's not hard to use it along with the caramel malt. Anybody can do it, and I wouldn't want to dissuade beginners from doing so, as it really is as simple as making tea.

Well I finally got to try my 60 minute ipa and the results are amazing. Great balance and hop flavor just what I was looking for

46andbrew said:

Well I finally got to try my 60 minute ipa and the results are amazing. Great balance and hop flavor just what I was looking for

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awesome, good job

:rockin: