Low Efficiency, Low Moral

Hello All,

I've done a few all grain batches now using my converted cooler mash tun, but my efficiency just seems to get worse with each passing brew. I can't figure out what's causing such rock-bottom extraction. Yesterday I brewed a sort of wheat-rye-american-roggenbier-hybrid-type-thing and ended up with somewhere around 56% efficiency. What a waste. It should still turn out all right, but I ended up with a smaller batch that was about 7 points lower than expected.

Here are my notes from the day:

6 lb Wheat (49%)
4 lb Marris Otter (32.7%)
2 lb Rye (16.3%)
.25 lb Rice Hulls (2%)

1 oz Fuggles at 60 Min

Added 4.5 gallons of 162 degree water to 12.25 pounds of grain, including rice hulls. Sealed for 60 minutes before draining and re-circulating several quarts and then draining off around 3 gallons of wort. Started the sparge of 5 gallons at 172. Slowly sprinkled sparge water without disturbing the grain bed and let drain for around 45 minutes. I ended up with 6 gallons at 1.044.

I'll also be adding about 6 pounds of blackberries into secondary, though that doesn't really have anything to do with the topic at hand.

How can I improve efficiency? I really thought I did everything right. Any suggestions?

OK, let me comment on a couple of things.

1) Your grist ratio (water to grain) is right around 1.5 qts/# of grain.
This falls into the acceptable range, but this is one of the many "tweaks" that in m opinion are specific to the individual equipment profile. (for instance, with my system I use a ratio that is closer to 1.33 to 1.25 Q/# and that works for me)

2) It sounds like you are fly sparging (trickling the water to not disturb the grains) which if done correctly increases the efficiency.
My opinion would be to batch sparge:
Drain your first runnings after the mash, figure out how much you have and then subtract that from the total amount of pre boil that you want.
(ie: If you want to boil 6.5 gallons and you get 2 from the first runnings, then you need an additional 4.5 gallons of sparge water)
I personally divide this amount into 2 equal "batches" of 2.25 gallons each. Add the first batch, stir like crazy and then drain. Repeat with 2nd batch.

3) You really did not mention much about the temperatures DURING the mash.
You added 162 degree water to 12.25# of grain which will drop the temp of the water.
Before sealing it up for 60 min, you have to make sure that the temp of the mash is correct, usually around 152-154. I also check it once or twice in the 60 min period to make sure that it is steady.

Just some ideas to get you headed in the right direction.

Also..how is your crush? I had a seemingly low efficiency until i started to crush much finer than i thought was healthy. Worked out perfectly, up to 78% from 66% before.

Just a thought.
-beermethatbeer

BeerMeThatBeer said:

Also..how is your crush? I had a seemingly low efficiency until i started to crush much finer than i thought was healthy. Worked out perfectly, up to 78% from 66% before.

Just a thought.
-beermethatbeer

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Yes. This would be my bet too. I'd also bet its the top cause of many efficiency problems. My former Lhbs crush was garbage. Probably over 1/3 of the hulls were intact. Haven't had efficiency issues since I got my own mill. I went from struggling to get 65% to regularly getting 75 to 80%

Post a picture of your crush and your cooler.

Let's just say for whatever reason the mash cooler is dropping from 162 to some low number like 148, then maybe 60 minutes isn't enough time to convert and you need to add 30-60 minutes for full conversion.

donovanneb said:

Let's just say for whatever reason the mash cooler is dropping from 162 to some low number like 148, then maybe 60 minutes isn't enough time to convert and you need to add 30-60 minutes for full conversion.

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Get some iodine to test. If your grains and process is good, the bulk of the conversion should be done within the first 15 minutes (I believe Jeremy King from Northern Brewer said that in some youtube video)

PH.

How is it? What kind of water do you use? Tap? Spring? RO? Distilled?

Crush finer
Dough in more aggressively (stirring thoroughly at mash in is critical)
Mash thinner
Mash longer.
Make sure your PH is between 5.2 and 5.6

What was your pre boil gravity and volume?

What was your post boil gravity and volume?

There are two efficiencies, mash and brew house. Each one is different but can help diagnose where the issue lies.

Jay bird hit on the most typical issues but knowing these answers can help figure things out

I second the "crush it until it hurts" idea. Might consider conditioning the grain first - sure helped my peace of mind.

Measure your mill gap. I thought mine was really tight until I bought a gapper. Turns out I had one side of "really loose" and one side that was "pretty loose".

Consider adding some acid to your sparge water. Supposedly, 1/4 tsp of lactic (or other food grade) acid will bring "normal" water to around 5 pH. This has helped my confidence in using hot water (close to 170 degrees) to sparge and really get those yummy sugars out.

All of the above should be taken with a hefty dose of salt. I have all of 5 all grain batches under my belt, but I have been around 70-80% efficiency on most.

I hope this helps!

duboman said:

What was your pre boil gravity and volume?

What was your post boil gravity and volume?

There are two efficiencies, mash and brew house. Each one is different but can help diagnose where the issue lies.

Jay bird hit on the most typical issues but knowing these answers can help figure things out

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To take this a step further there is also mash efficiency and lautering/sparge efficiency. You can measure these individually too to help diagnose if you don't find it's something more obvious. I started measure these independently. In my case I noticed that my mash efficiency was what was suffering. I used a refractometer to monitor the sugar extracted during mash and watched it keep extracting well past 1 hr. This is one sign of an inadequate crush. Of course in my case, if I had just looked at pictures of good crushes, I would have realized that.

fmr_army said:

I second the "crush it until it hurts" idea. Might consider conditioning the grain first - sure helped my peace of mind.

Measure your mill gap. I thought mine was really tight until I bought a gapper. Turns out I had one side of "really loose" and one side that was "pretty loose".

Consider adding some acid to your sparge water. Supposedly, 1/4 tsp of lactic (or other food grade) acid will bring "normal" water to around 5 pH. This has helped my confidence in using hot water (close to 170 degrees) to sparge and really get those yummy sugars out.

All of the above should be taken with a hefty dose of salt. I have all of 5 all grain batches under my belt, but I have been around 70-80% efficiency on most.

I hope this helps!

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Yep, crush just till you're afraid the mash will get stuck, then toss in some rice hulls.

LA can be used if you are having pH problems, but don't make blind additions. It's not really the water pH that matters. It's the mash pH that does. For darker beers most tap water will allow for a good mash pH. It's highly alkaline water or light colored grain bills (or both) that can lead to the need to adjust mash pH.

I second the advise of brewkinger and all who mention ensuring the grain are properly crushed. If you are crushing your own grain or getting it from the same brew shop (who crushes it for you) and your temps are correct from beginning of mash to the end yet you still have low efficiency, then crush of the grain is likely the culprit. Assuming of course, that your PH, water, etc is good.

I would suggest batch sparging in a converted cooler. Ive done both in my converted 10 gallon orange rubbermaid. I dont know why but my efficiency is always better when I batch sparge. Maybe Im doing something wrong when I fly sparge but Im happy with the 70%+ plus I get when I batch sparge.

If you are using a orange rubbermaid cooler (or really any cooler), I would drill holes in the top and fill it with a foam insulator. Like most coolers, they are designed to release heat through the top to keep whatever is inside cool. I insulated the top and wrap it in a normal blanket and space blanket and can hold my temps within 3-6 degrees over the course of hour. And I open it every 20 minutes to check temps and PH.

I'm no expert and I know you used rice hulls, but I'm still surprised nobody's highlighted your use of adjuncts as a possible issue. At 50% wheat, a lot of recipes would recommend a number of mash temperatures rather than a single infusion. I think whether the wheat is raw or malted has an effect too (i think wheat is poorly modified and hard to get much extraction from).
Palmer actually recommends a 'beta glucan rest' to stop wheat from forming a gelatinous mess.

At any rate I'd personally look at the recipe and mash schedule before you start modifying your mash tun.

Peppers16 said:

I'm no expert and I know you used rice hulls, but I'm still surprised nobody's highlighted your use of adjuncts as a possible issue. At 50% wheat, a lot of recipes would recommend a number of mash temperatures rather than a single infusion. I think whether the wheat is raw or malted has an effect too (i think wheat is poorly modified and hard to get much extraction from).
Palmer actually recommends a 'beta glucan rest' to stop wheat from forming a gelatinous mess.

At any rate I'd personally look at the recipe and mash schedule before you start modifying your mash tun.

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+1 ...Raw wheat needs extended protein rests and mashed with at least 50% base malt.
Even though I fly sparge, I know that batch sparging can be close enough, within 5% efficiency, so with homebrew volumes adding a little extra base malt to make up for that is not a big deal. If fly sparging correctly is difficult on your existing system then efficiency can suffer and the batch sparge method may actually be a better option.

Glad somebody backed me up on that point!
If your efficiency problem is indeed related to the wheat/mash (and from what you've said I suspect it is) I'd suggest, from one AG beginner to another:
1) Stick to barley for a few batches and keep the wheat below 5-10% until you've established there's nothing wrong with your equipment/sparging etc.
2) If you want to use wheat I'd look into a 50-60-70 (C) schedule or something along those lines.

If you don't already use software, programs like BeerSmith really come into their own when it comes to multiple step mashes. Basically just plug in a few numbers and it'll tell you how much water to add (or decoct) and at what temperature. Their website also has incredibly useful pages on different grain types and how to use them.

I don't work for them, honest

I would have stepped up and backed you up Peppers, but I now am enlighthened. I am now educated about wheat in the mash. I had no idea it could lead to bad efficiency, I did know that it can cause stuck sparges though.
I have used small amounts if wheat in blonde ales. Flaked wheat mostly (I think)

brewkinger said:

I would have stepped up and backed you up Peppers, but I now am enlighthened. I am now educated about wheat in the mash. I had no idea it could lead to bad efficiency, I did know that it can cause stuck sparges though.
I have used small amounts if wheat in blonde ales. Flaked wheat mostly (I think)

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Wheat in the mash doesn't lead to bad efficiency by itself. It converts just fine and you can even use unmalted wheat with only about 35% malted barley and do just fine. Where the problem arises is in the crush of wheat. Wheat kernels are smaller and harder than those of barley so you need to tighten the crusher to take care of the smaller kernel size and perhaps "condition" the wheat to soften it some too.

If you use high amounts of wheat in the recipe you probably do want to do a beta glucan rest and use lots of rice hulls to account for the lack of husk on the wheat or even better, switch to BIAB for those beers because you can force the wort out of the bag and not worry about a stuck lauter or sparge.

RM-MN said:

Wheat in the mash doesn't lead to bad efficiency by itself. It converts just fine and you can even use unmalted wheat with only about 35% malted barley and do just fine. Where the problem arises is in the crush of wheat. Wheat kernels are smaller and harder than those of barley so you need to tighten the crusher to take care of the smaller kernel size and perhaps "condition" the wheat to soften it some too.

If you use high amounts of wheat in the recipe you probably do want to do a beta glucan rest and use lots of rice hulls to account for the lack of husk on the wheat or even better, switch to BIAB for those beers because you can force the wort out of the bag and not worry about a stuck lauter or sparge.

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^^this^^
I just did an Allagash white type beer with almost 65% wheat, both red and white and hit my typical 80% efficiency with no problems

Although there are quite a few variable.....I my humble experience, really poor extraction is almost always a crush issue. I completely understand "morale" issues as well. You work so hard to get it right and it really sucks to get low eff. Any time I've gotten lazy and had the LHBS crush for me, I've Always gotten in the fifties. Another HBS I occasionaly go to, Princeton Homebrew in nj (shameless plug) Crushes it right with the mid seventies as a reward. When I do it my self I get in the 70-80 range.

From a driveway casual AG brewer, here is what I did to combat the low efficiency issue after some false starts on my initial jump to AG and having the same issues on my first 2 batches.

- Make sure your grains are fresh and that you are getting a good crush. Taste them. You will know if they are stale.

- Make sure your cooler/mash tun is able to handle what you are pushing through it. I moved from a 5 gallon round cooler with false bottom to a larger square igloo with a braid setup and its worked wonders for me on efficiency.

- Stir, stir, stir your mash during strike and sparge. Seriously. You would be surprised at the dough balls that might be lingering in the corners and bottom corners of the MT. Every little bit of that grain/powder getting wet counts towards hitting your efficiency numbers you are wanting to hit.

- Invest in a floating thermo(if you dont use one currently) to have move with you from strike water to mash tun as my floating thermo does not jump all over the place if it moves with the strike water to the MT and is a solid guide post for me temp-wise. Strike 10 deg hotter than your mash temp target. Some add the grains, then the strike water, I add strike water, then pour in the grains and again, stir, stir, stir and stir some more. 10 deg hotter than the initial mashing target is my magic number if the grains I am adding to the strike water are at room temp.

- Preheat your mash tun/cooler if hitting initial mash temps are an issue(this helps to know and learn that "magic number" for mashing).

- I adopted a double batch sparge method and that along with the cooler change-out has worked wonders. I did a double 10 min batch sparge-out on my last 4 AG batches and I have never failed to hit my target SG or even get it better where as before I was missing my SG and getting 60% at very best on efficiency which sucked for me personally. The stir, stir, stir method and temp for sparge water is again, key on this point.

- Using store bought spring water. I just don't trust the Ph in my tap water. At least with the store bought water, its consistent on Ph. A bit more costly, but its my beer. It should be the best I can personally make.

Just some simple changes I made changed how I do AG batches that have helped me to hit or surpass my target efficiency-wise every time. Efficiency issues for me now is usually always due to just my own impatience on the mash/sparge time, or crush/grain freshness issues.

Have fun and don't let it get you down. It happens and has happened to me as well. I just had to tweak a few things to figure it all out. I love AG brewing!