brewmonger
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Any idea how sanitation was done without Star Sans or other industrial chemicals?
Or, they drank alot of semi-infected beer, wine and mead. I know many people who still have sour-ish wines and think it's normal.
Yea I think there was a lot of infected beer / wine in the old days. remember IPA was made with higher alcohol / hops to prevent infection in oak barrels on the way to India, and that wasn't even very long ago. As long as they are protected form light it wouldn't be an issue in modern times.
Early shipments to India contained bottled porters, the favorite beer in London, which generally arrived flat, musty, and sour. The answer to the great beer problem finally came from a recipe created by George Hodgson at the Bow Brewery in East London. India ale was a variation of his pale ale, which Londoners had been drinking since the mid-1750s. Hodgson took his pale ale recipe, increased the hop content considerably, and raised the alcohol content. The result was a very bitter, alcoholic, and sparkling pale ale that could survive the challenges of travel and shelf life in India. IPA reached India in an enjoyable condition and Hodgson's success became legendary. Hodgson began shipping Hodgson's India Ale during the 1780s. By 1784 advertisements were appearing in the Calcutta Gazette for "light and excellent" pale ale.
alcohol could be used too.
I have read from numerous sources that the fermentation of grain was (possibly) the reason that homo-sapiens began the practice of grain cultivation, agriculture, and thus civilization.
Of course there is a lot of grey area in that assertion. I wouldn't say that early humans didn't understand "germ theory." They just understood it in a different way than we do today.
But regardless of the causes for agriculture (they are many and complex) why would we choose to substitute the easily spoilable beer for the stregnth and preservability of mead? I can't imagine that people went to great legnths to create something so unpalatable when there were clear alternatives that they were surely aware of.
On the surface it seems that even wine is more stable than beer, though that came later.
Perhaps there were deeper social reasons or spirtual reasons for the cultivation of grain for beer? Or is there some scientific explanation for it?
he Hymn to Ninkasi, inscribed on a nineteenth-century B.C. tablet, contains a recipe for Sumerian beer.)
Translation by Miguel Civil
Borne of the flowing water (...)
Tenderly cared for by the Ninhursag,
Borne of the flowing water (...)
Tenderly cared for by the Ninhursag,
Having founded your town by the sacred lake,
She finished its great walls for you,
Ninkasi, having founded your town by the sacred lake,
She finished its great walls for you
Your father is Enki, Lord Nidimmud,
Your mother is Ninti, the queen of the sacred lake,
Ninkasi, Your father is Enki, Lord Nidimmud,
Your mother is Ninti, the queen of the sacred lake.
You are the one who handles the dough,
[and] with a big shovel,
Mixing in a pit, the bappir with sweet aromatics,
Ninkasi, You are the one who handles
the dough, [and] with a big shovel,
Mixing in a pit, the bappir with [date]-honey.
You are the one who bakes the bappir
in the big oven,
Puts in order the piles of hulled grains,
Ninkasi, you are the one who bakes
the bappir in the big oven,
Puts in order the piles of hulled grains,
You are the one who waters the malt
set on the ground,
The noble dogs keep away even the potentates,
Ninkasi, you are the one who waters the malt
set on the ground,
The noble dogs keep away even the potentates.
You are the one who soaks the malt in a jar
The waves rise, the waves fall.
Ninkasi, you are the one who soaks
the malt in a jar
The waves rise, the waves fall.
You are the one who spreads the cooked
mash on large reed mats,
Coolness overcomes.
Ninkasi, you are the one who spreads
the cooked mash on large reed mats,
Coolness overcomes.
You are the one who holds with both hands
the great sweet wort,
Brewing [it] with honey and wine
(You the sweet wort to the vessel)
Ninkasi, (...)
(You the sweet wort to the vessel)
The filtering vat, which makes
a pleasant sound,
You place appropriately on [top of]
a large collector vat.
Ninkasi, the filtering vat,
which makes a pleasant sound,
You place appropriately on [top of]
a large collector vat.
When you pour out the filtered beer
of the collector vat,
It is [like] the onrush of
Tigris and Euphrates.
Ninkasi, you are the one who pours out the
filtered beer of the collector vat,
It is [like] the onrush of
Tigris and Euphrates.
Speaking of the DFH Midas Touch, I just picked up some this past weekend. It's a really unique creation and combination of flavors. You can taste the malt, grapes and honey all at once.
That's the great debate, which came first, mead vs beer. The Tale of the "Honeymoon" vs the Hymn to Nikasi
I lean obviously towards the beer side..
In order to make mead one has to gather the honey, integrate it with water to thin it out and then ferment it...Since to my knowledge you don't normally gather honey and mix it with water, (And I don't believe you can just put yeast on the honey and have it ferment, it has to be diluted somehow) whereas you could easily have a bowl of grain sitting there where it could get soaked and the resulting mash could get hit with wild yeast and spontaneously ferment.
I think it comes down to which was more apt to sponatneously ferment in it's storage environment.
And which was cultivated as a foodstuff first, grains or honey...
Hmmm.... how would the starches have converted, though? Maybe someone cooking a porridge or something and leaving it out? Wet grain isn't going to make beer on its own.
Beer was first dammnit.
Seriously though, beer history is amazing in itself. I too liked the DFH Midas Touch despite all of the bad reviews I had heard about it. The concept of brewing a beer that "might" have been similar to a several thousand year old drink is amazing. As for how beer came to be back then, I think the aliens probably had something to do with it, or zombies perhaps.
One of the central thesis of "Sacred Herbal Healing Beers" is that the discovery of fermentation was NOT merely an "accident" (i.e. a bucket of grains getting wet and warm and innoculated with a wild yeast, turning into the first beer).
Rather, the knowledge of fermentation by the ancients was often accompined by mythology about the knolwedge being a gift given to humans by gods or by the spirits of the plants themselves.
American beer snobs a hundred years from now will be paying big bucks for this, and sticking table legs in their carboys!"
I think I'll go put a gym sock in my primary. the fact is that you're probably right. good thing i'll be gone by then. :rockin:
I don't think it needs to be a competition or debate over which came first. I have fermented all of the above (mead, wine, cider, & beer) and can appreciate the qualities of each one, though beer is my preffered drink of choice.
However, we have to be honest with ourselves. Brewing beer is a very complicated process. Making mead, wine, and cider, on the other hand, is considerably simpler. The sugars in honey and fruit are freely available and don't have to be converted and extracted through a long and labor-intensive malting, grinding, mashing, and lautering process.
The anthropological evidence for the brewing of mead dates back at least 40,000 years, while we know that barley was first domesticated in the fertile crescent roughly 10,000 years ago.
I'm not trying to knock beer. I like it.
Hey so back to the original topic of the thread...
Do you think that perhaps sulfur was used for santition in beer-brewing vessels, much as it has been used to kill off spoiling bacteria in winemaking for centuries?
I don't know if I like the idea of having Star Sans in my beer. While I recognize the need for good sanitation, I am also very skeptical of industrial chemicals and modern "scientific" dogmas.
I recently purchased some Star Sans, but I don't know how to use it correctly or what its benefits and detractions are.
March 29, 2007 - Sanitizing with Bleach and Star San
Charlie Talley from Five Star Chemicals tells us best practices in using household bleach and Star San in sanitizing equipment.
http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-29-07.mp3
March 22, 2007 - Sanitizing with Iodophor
Murl Landman of National Chemicals talks to us about sanitization techniques in general and using Iodophor specifically.
http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-22-07.mp3
Did you guys hear about the drunk moose that was in the news? Apparently it ate some yeasted apples and bit some girl.
The techniques for brewing varied depending on the region and the time period. So all the techniques you mentioned were probably used at one time or another in some region.
One of the reasons I bring up the sanitation issue is because I share a concern with the guy from the thread I linked to above.
I don't know if I like the idea of having Star Sans in my beer. While I recognize the need for good sanitation, I am also very skeptical of industrial chemicals and modern "scientific" dogmas.
I recently purchased some Star Sans, but I don't know how to use it correctly or what its benefits and detractions are.
Did you guys hear about the drunk moose that was in the news? Apparently it ate some yeasted apples and bit some girl.
The people responsible for the credits have just been sacked.
/God I hope this isn't obscure.
The FDA has extremely stringent requirements on food-grade sanitation products, safety included.
In fact, Saniclean, which is basically a non-foaming starsan, doesn't even qualify as a food-grade sanitation solution, but is essentially the same stuff as starsan. As has been said before multiple times, people have drank diluted starsan without issue, me included.
The amount I consumed was far, far higher than the residue that finds it's way into beer. Let's break it down. One ounce of starsan to 5 gallons of water, or 1 ounce to 640 ounces of water. That makes it .2% solution. I *might* have a total of what, 2 ounces of solution, including foam (and I'm being overly generous here) that makes it's way into the beer, which is, once I'm done with the calculator, .003 of an ounce of pure starsan in your *entire* 5 gallon batch of beer. If you're bottling into 12 ounce bottles, thats... 6 times 10^-5 ounces of starsan concentrate in each bottle. That works out to what, .000006 ounces or so. We're talking trace amounts here, and we're not even considering that once inert, starsan is eaten up by yeast anyway. However this is "scientific dogma" so you may want to discount everything I've just said. You probably consume more toxins though by an order of magnitude with a hamburger from McDonalds.
If you're really *that* paranoid, just rinse out the containers, though this defeats the concept of no-rinse sanitation. You'll have to anyway if you want to use bleach. If you're paranoid about using bleach, you'll probably have to stop drinking your local water supply anyway, so you've got bigger problems on your hands.
At this point, you have a few options. Use bleach. Use a sanitizer you feel "okay" using (though this is doubtful, they're all similar). Autoclave heat is an option. Or you could do what everyone else used to do for centuries, and just except frequent, ruined beer as a part of life.
I'm also curious about oxyclean. Where does one go about obtaining that? Would it simply be found at a local grocery store or hardware store?
Oxyclean is available all over the place, most big box stores these days also have their own generic brands. If you are a member of costco or sam's club they have big boxes of oxyclean (I believe it was 10 or 15 pounds) for $14.95.
Oxyclean is simply sodium percarbonate.
I bought some generic from Dollar General yesterday for $3.50 for 5 pounds. It is not as noticeably fizzy as oxyclean, but it did the job getting a thick ring of krausen off the top of a plastic carboy, so I'm not complaining.
I have herad from other people that the walmart generic works great.
Is it any different from one-step?
Is it effective as a santizing/sterilizing agent? How long is contact required?
Does it require rinsing -- in other words would it create off-flavors in the beer if it got into it, as chlorine bleach supposedly does? Does it leave behind a protective coat as Star Sans supposedly does?
It's used as a cleaner not a sanitizer (and technically onestep is not a sanitizer either.)
It is like PBW, professional brewery wash, only much cheaper. The fizziness really helps break stuck on gunk free in every aspect of brewing, it's really good for dried krauzen rings in fermenters, and a soak anywhere from 2 hours to overrnight will remove most labels from bottles....
You have to rinse thoroughly, since it is "soap" afterall.
starsan doesn't leave a coating, nor does it leave off flavors at the proper concentration, any remainder (which like iodophor there should be remainder since they are both "wet contact" sanitizers) becomes yeast food.
If starsan or iodophor were "bad" for brewing (because they affected the taste of the beer, for instance) then why would the majority of the brewers on this site, and professional craft brewers use and recommend both of them so highly?
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