When to Test Mash pH?

I want to check the pH of my mash. I know that the grains will bring down the pH, but I don't know how long this takes. How long after adding the grains to the strike water should I check the pH?

I check around 10 minutes in. I use a very small pyrex food container, swirl it around to get down to 90F, and then pop it in the freezer for 3-5 minutes to get to room temperature.

Then, I add some aciduated malt after the pH reading to bring it down to the 5.5 range, at room temperature. I use the heuristic of 1% acid malt per 0.1 drop in pH. It's worked pretty well for me.

Thanks!

novahokie09 said:

I check around 10 minutes in. I use a very small pyrex food container, swirl it around to get down to 90F, and then pop it in the freezer for 3-5 minutes to get to room temperature.

Then, I add some aciduated malt after the pH reading to bring it down to the 5.5 range, at room temperature. I use the heuristic of 1% acid malt per 0.1 drop in pH. It's worked pretty well for me.

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If you expect to need an acid adjustment, then waiting until 15-20 minutes isn't a sound strategy since so much of the conversion takes place in the first 15 minutes, I.e. before you've adjusted the water. I'd suggest including your acid malt to the initial mash, then adjusting afterward if needed with lactic or phosphoric acid, which will act very quickly.

How about if I use the EZ Water Calculator to determine the initial adjustment based on the report from my town's water department, then test and adjust (if needed) after 5 minutes of mash?

Or should I just go with the EZ Water Calculator and let it go at that?

I only have pH strips from the LHBS to test the pH. The strips only read at 5.0, 5.4, and 5.8 in the range desired for the mash.

smyrnaquince said:

How about if I use the EZ Water Calculator to determine the initial adjustment based on the report from my town's water department, then test and adjust (if needed) after 5 minutes of mash?
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That's the typical procedure. Try to base it off your experience as much as possible since the calculators are just rough guesses.

smyrnaquince said:

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I only have pH strips from the LHBS to test the pH. The strips only read at 5.0, 5.4, and 5.8 in the range desired for the mash.

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Your test strips are not reliable, but you may already know that. ColorpHast strips are just barely useful, but they read very low. Some say .3, but my strips are .4 to .5.

The colorPhast 4-7 range are pretty close, certainly close enough for our purposes. I test at 5 minutes in.

Checking mash pH at about the 5 to 10 minute stage is appropriate. In my RIMS, the wort is recirculated fairly rapidly. So I check at about 5 minutes. In an uncirculated tun, then you should check shortly after you think the mash is well-mixed enough.

+1 on using an appropriate mash pH calculator to estimate the proper acid or base additions needed for a desirable pH BEFORE the mash. If you are mashing in and then checking pH and then adjusting, far too much of the enzymatic activity will have transpired and the beer may suffer for it. On top of that, if you don't use a calculator, then you won't have a good idea of the dose of your adjustments beforehand. Don't chase your tail.

smyrnaquince said:

I only have pH strips from the LHBS to test the pH. The strips only read at 5.0, 5.4, and 5.8 in the range desired for the mash.

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SpeedYellow said:

Your test strips are not reliable, but you may already know that.

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I'll see if I can return them. It seems like they won't get me any closer than the EZ Water Calculator will.

Hitting a different LHBS today. My favorite one did not have lactic acid. Based on EZ Water, I've come up with a mix of gypsum, epsom salt, and lactic acid to bring the pH down, bump up some of the elements (e.g., calcium), and not get anything out of whack. This will be a witbier. I used Bru'nwater to see the Hoegarden water analysis to try to mimic, but I found EZ Water easier to use (at least this first time trying to adjust water).

smyrnaquince said:

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Based on EZ Water, I've come up with a mix of gypsum, epsom salt, and lactic acid to bring the pH down, bump up some of the elements (e.g., calcium), and not get anything out of whack. This will be a witbier. I used Bru'nwater to see the Hoegarden water analysis to try to mimic,...

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a couple points:

1) One big change in home brewing in the last few years is that folks aren't trying to use minerals so much to affect mash pH. Instead, use lactic or phosphoric acid. Minerals aren't very effective and can mess up your flavor, mouthfeel, etc.

2) For a witbier, I'd keep the water as soft as possible. I'm skeptical Epsom salts could help that kind of beer.

3) I'm not sure if you're trying to mimic a city's water profile, but that process has also fallen out of favor since many breweries change their water; e.g. reduce their residual alkalinity.

Some folks, me included, try to minimize minerals; just keep calcium at a reasonable level and maybe watch the chloride-sulfate [oops- thanks Denny] ratio.

SpeedYellow,

I did not know that adding minerals and mimicking water supplies had fallen out of favor. Thanks!

I have listed some possibilities below. Would you recommend Option 2?

I have not had my water analyzed, but based on averages from my town's water report, I have (in ppm), with EZ Water's recommended range in parens after my number:

• Ca: 18.5 (50-150)
• Mg: 5.25 (10-30)
• Na: 48 (0-150)
• Cl: 111 (0-250)
• SO4: 21.5 (50-350)
• Alkalinity (CaCO3): 65
• Chloride / Sulfate Ratio: 5.16 (0.77-1.3)
• Mash pH calculated for my recipe: 5.99 (5.4-5.6)

EZ Water's recommended ranges are from Palmer's book. My copy is at home, so I cannot verify them now.

I am doing a half-batch, full-volume BIAB of witbier from Brewing Classic Styles.

OPTION 1
My original plan had been to add 4 grams gypsum (CaSO4), 2 grams epsom salt (MgSO4), and 4 ml lactic acid to bump the numbers (as calculated by EZ Water) to get:

• Ca: 59 (50-150)
• Mg: 14 (10-30)
• Na: 48 (0-150)
• Cl: 111 (0-250)
• SO4: 155 (50-350)
• Alkalinity (CaCO3): 65
• Chloride / Sulfate Ratio: 0.71 (0.77-1.3) Below .77, may enhance bitterness
• Mash pH calculated for my recipe: 5.40 (5.4-5.6)

OPTION 2
If I follow your advice to just bump up the calcium and use lactic acid to adjust the pH, I use no epsom salt (MgSO4), but use 4 grams gypsum (CaSO4) and 4 ml lactic acid to get:

• Ca: 59 (50-150)
• Mg: 5 (10-30)
• Na: 48 (0-150)
• Cl: 111 (0-250)
• SO4: 121 (50-350)
• Alkalinity (CaCO3): 65
• Chloride / Sulfate Ratio: 0.92 (0.77-1.3)
• Mash pH calculated for my recipe: 5.41 (5.4-5.6)

The calcium is now in range, the chloride/sulfate ratio is in range, and only the Magnesium is out. I don't have my copy of Palmer's book at work to know how important the Magnesium is.

OPTION 3
Going to the other extreme, I can put all of the numbers solidly in the green range with lots of minerals. Add 7 grams gypsum (CaSO4), 4 grams calcium chloride (CaCl2), 2 grams epsom salt (MgSO4), and 2.9 ml lactic acid to bump the numbers to get:

• Ca: 138 (50-150)
• Mg: 14 (10-30)
• Na: 48 (0-150)
• Cl: 197 (0-250)
• SO4: 230 (50-350)
• Alkalinity (CaCO3): 65
• Chloride / Sulfate Ratio: 0.86 (0.77-1.3)
• Mash pH calculated for my recipe: 5.40 (5.4-5.6)

OPTION 4
I can put all of the numbers (for some, just) into the green range. Add 3 grams gypsum (CaSO4), 1 gram calcium chloride (CaCl2), 2 grams epsom salt (MgSO4), and 3.9 ml lactic acid to bump the numbers to get:

• Ca: 61 (50-150)
• Mg: 14 (10-30)
• Na: 48 (0-150)
• Cl: 132 (0-250)
• SO4: 131 (50-350)
• Alkalinity (CaCO3): 65
• Chloride / Sulfate Ratio: 1.01 (0.77-1.3)
• Mash pH calculated for my recipe: 5.40 (5.4-5.6)

OPTION 5
If I just use 4.5 ml lactic acid with nothing else, the pH comes down to 5.41, but all the original numbers, including low calcium and high chloride/sulfate ratio, are still there.

It seems to me that my best options are either #2 or #4.

Your Options #1 or #2 look pretty decent. You may want to post in Brewing Science because there are some real water experts there. Perhaps they'll have thoughts on your relatively high Na and Cl.

smyrnaquince said:

I'll see if I can return them. It seems like they won't get me any closer than the EZ Water Calculator will.

Hitting a different LHBS today. My favorite one did not have lactic acid. Based on EZ Water, I've come up with a mix of gypsum, epsom salt, and lactic acid to bring the pH down, bump up some of the elements (e.g., calcium), and not get anything out of whack. This will be a witbier. I used Bru'nwater to see the Hoegarden water analysis to try to mimic, but I found EZ Water easier to use (at least this first time trying to adjust water).

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Skip the epsom salt. Mg is pretty much never needed to be added. When you use Bru'nwater, use a color/flavor profile (e.g., yellow/balanced) rather than a city profile.

SpeedYellow said:

maybe watch the calcium-sulfate ratio.

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Do you mean chloride/sulfate ratio?

I would be careful with the epsome salts too. I just started doing adjustments about 9ish months ago and had a minerally taste which I figured out was most likely from the epsome salts. My water is very soft (for MG only about 2ppm) but I maximum put in 2 grams in a 5.75 batch. I do this mostly to get a little bit of sulfate from it but Denny is right, all the Mg needed will come from the grains. The important thing to remember is to not over do it. I would get your water analized. You can use Ward Labs and it's like 25 bucks or something. It's better to use that.

I have recently also started to do pH readings. I have only done 3 so far but only one of them was close to the calculated pH value. If you really want to get an accurate pH reading your really going to have to get a meter IMHO. Also, unless your making a super dark beer most likely you are within the acceptable pH range.

If you are really worried I would have 1 to 3% of your grain bill on your lighter beers be acidulated malt. Try 1% first.

The few times I measured my pH so far (I mash in an igloo/gatorade cooler with a false bottom) I hit my temp and then recirculated about a gallon of the wort and took a reading from the bottom spigot after 10min (after letting it cool down in an ice bath to about 75F).

Also, a lot of "classic" profiles from brewing cities car be pretty wrong on their numbers and it's best to follow simpler measurements like in Bru'n Waters color profiles (what I use, never used easy water).

As far as your options above I would go with 1 or 2 but honestly the Cl and S04 look a bit high in general for a wheat beer. I would maybe cut that down a bit. I would look at the bru'n water color profiles which can give you a better idea of what to do.

Again, I have found estimated pH values to generally be off in my experiences so I would rely on a pH meter and experience to really tell you what to do, although mashing at a lower pH is much better than mashing at a higher one.

I will re-post over at Brewing Science.

I am currently leaning toward #2 for a minimal adjustment, allowing the grains to give me the additional Magnesium and let me avoid epsom salts.

Thanks, all, for your help!

Denny said:

Do you mean chloride/sulfate ratio?

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Ha. Thanks Denny. I hadn't yet had my minimum daily requirement of coffee when I posted that.

SpeedYellow said:

Ha. Thanks Denny. I hadn't yet had my minimum daily requirement of coffee when I posted that.

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de nada

And I'd say don't pay TOO much attention to that. Although it does have some usefulness, the numbers themselves seem to be more important than the ratio.

Where's Martin to explain all this stuff when you need him?

Good thing Denny invoked my name and pointed out the levels of Cl and SO4 or I would have overlooked that post above.

Yes, the levels of Cl and SO4 are pretty darn high for some beer styles. Unfortunately, the ranges quoted in EZ Water are outdated and they have been significantly altered for Palmer's upcoming book. The concentrations for the color-based water profiles in Bru'n Water are based on producing modest levels of the major brewing ions. I recommend reviewing those levels and making your own assessment of where you want to take the levels for your brewing. For those attending the NHC in Philly next week, you will be able to learn quite a bit about brewing with historic water profiles if you attend my presentation on Saturday morning.

Martin,

I've been trying to work more with your Bru'nwater spreadsheet and I'm starting to get the hang of it.

I have Palmer's current book. Any idea when the new one is due out? Is there any place to get the updated levels for Cl, SO4, etc.?

You mention that my "levels of Cl and SO4 are pretty darn high for some beer styles." Is there any place to find the levels to called out per beer style, other than selecting each style in your spreadsheet? This webpage of yours has water profiles for major brewing centers, but I thought that these profiles are not good indicators for different styles because of water treatments the breweries use.

By the way, my untreated water has Cl = 111 and SO4 = 21.5. Is this SO4 really considered to be high, or are you referring to my Chloride / Sulfate Ratio = 5.16?

And, unless I am understanding this wrong, the important deficiency I have (as opposed to excess) is my Ca = 18.5.

John called me on Friday to discuss some items for the book. Its in final editing and typesetting. He told me that Amazon says that its due out in November. I guess that Brewers Publications isn't communicating an internal release date, but my understanding is that the goal was October.

The Water Knowledge page of the Bru'n Water site does have a section on brewing ions and the ranges stated on that page are similar to what will be published in the book.

The only real concern in the tap water is the chloride level. But the subsequent adjusted water profiles include higher sulfate levels that may create 'minerally' perceptions in the finished beer. Since the chloride level is high in the tap water, I think that the ratio goes out the window. Diluting the tap water with low chloride water is recommended to help reduce the potential of minerally flavors and the clash that high sulfate and chloride may deliver.

Yes, the calcium level is lower than desirable. However, good beers can still be made when calcium is low. It just may give you more headaches than its worth. Boosting calcium to at least 40 ppm solves some problems and boosting it to 50 ppm should solve most.

mabrungard said:

Good thing Denny invoked my name and pointed out the levels of Cl and SO4 or I would have overlooked that post above.

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Kind of like summoning a wizard....

Thank you. I am reading more on your Water Knowledge page and learning.

I made this recipe a few weeks ago with no water adjustments. This will be the same brew, except for the water adjustments, so I can see their effect.

To take this one step at a time, I think I will try just adding the CaSO4 for the calcium and lactic acid to lower the pH. If I throw the kitchen sink at it, I'm afraid I won't really know what had the biggest effect. I understand that this means the Cl will be high.

smyrnaquince said:

Thank you. I am reading more on your Water Knowledge page and learning.

I made this recipe a few weeks ago with no water adjustments. This will be the same brew, except for the water adjustments, so I can see their effect.

To take this one step at a time, I think I will try just adding the CaSO4 for the calcium and lactic acid to lower the pH. If I throw the kitchen sink at it, I'm afraid I won't really know what had the biggest effect. I understand that this means the Cl will be high.

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That is an excellent plan!

smyrnaquince said:

Thank you. I am reading more on your Water Knowledge page and learning.

I made this recipe a few weeks ago with no water adjustments. This will be the same brew, except for the water adjustments, so I can see their effect.

To take this one step at a time, I think I will try just adding the CaSO4 for the calcium and lactic acid to lower the pH. If I throw the kitchen sink at it, I'm afraid I won't really know what had the biggest effect. I understand that this means the Cl will be high.

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What I suggest is using some RO or distilled water along with your tap water, to reduce that high chloride water and then add some CaS04 and/or lactic acid as needed.

RO water is cheap, if you have a grocery store or Wal-Mart near with those big water machines. I really think you'll be much more pleased with a lower chloride level, and it's cheap and easy to fix that.

Long term, I like Yoopers plan, especially for lighter beers and lagers. Pretty easy to just grab a few gallons of RO or distilled water. But I do nearly entirely lagers, so I'm biased toward low-mineral water.

What about using a calc (EZ orBru'n) to determine how much acid to add, then acidifying the strike water?

I am using those calculators. If I don't acidify the mash, it would be too late by sparge time to make a difference. Anyway, I'm doing a full BIAB, so there is no sparge.

And yes, I am trying to bring down the pH of my mash (main goal) and trying to adjust at least some of the minerals.

And now, a good-news follow-up. I've been talking with someone at our Water Department and got hold of the reports for the individual wells as well as the mix of wells that feed my neighborhood.

The good news is that my chloride should be around 50, not the 111 average I calculated from the max range reported. The well that spikes at 200 ppm chloride is an "emergency" well that is not typically used.

why don't you just get you water tested with ward labs? its only 25 bucks and will save you some stress, although if your water company is using varying wells as a source you might just want to use RO water and build up from there. It's usually not terribly expensive either, like about 50 cents a gallon or so

mabrungard said:

Checking mash pH at about the 5 to 10 minute stage is appropriate. In my RIMS, the wort is recirculated fairly rapidly. So I check at about 5 minutes. In an uncirculated tun, then you should check shortly after you think the mash is well-mixed enough.

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I know I'm bumping an old thread here but I was wondering what difference, if any, it makes to take the mash pH right at the end of the mash? The reason is I don't want to be lifting the lid trying to take measurements and make adjustments all the while losing vital heat from the mash. I'd be happy to leave it be with the Bru'n'water estimated additions, test at the end and calculate adjustments for future brews if that's possible?

I'm no expert, but that bit "make adjustments" you said--that's not what I typically see as the procedure followed. Usually you calculate, or not, then brew and measure. Based on that, you determine what to do next brew.