Kegging mishap w/starsan

So I was kegging my two hearted clone yesterday and I had 2 empty kegs that I had cleaned out sitting next to me. I had sanitized one of them already and the other had a little less than 1/4oz of starsan poured in it that I was going to finish up after I had started the siphoning process.

I mistakingly grabbed the wrong keg and siphoned my beer on top of the un-rinsed starsan keg and didn't realize it until it was over half full.

Hoping everything turns out ok and it still tastes good, the sample I pulled before siphoning was perfect.

So you had a 1/4 oz of straight undiluted starsan in the keg you put the beer in?

I would definitely check the warning labels. I know diluted starsan residue and bubbles left are just fine, but I'm not sure about having much more in the keg. Better just check the labels and maybe the starsan website for any warnings just to be safe. 5 gallons of beer aren't worth getting sick over from a chemical contamination.

I emailed fivestar chemicals to see what they say but have not received a response yet. I am definitely not planning on drinking it until i find out for sure.

There was a thread in here a few months back where someone accidentally used star san solution instead of top up water. I also recall revvy mentioning a video where the owner of star san drank some straight from the bottle. I think if the beer tastes fine then there's no problem. Though the response the company gives you should tell you everything you need to know.

The Starsan is just going to get diluted with beer the same as it would with water, basically you have the equivalent of 1.25 gallons of sanitizer solution in there. I really doubt you have anything to worry about.

pannell77 said:

...un-rinsed starsan keg...

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I realize that we are talking about un-diluted starsan here, but you realize that star san is a no rinse sanitizer, right?

Star San is an acid based sanitizer only effective at ph less than 3.5. When it comes in contact with the higher ph beer it is completely neutralized. You'll be fine. It's actually good news you got an extra 1/4oz or beer!

My guess is you will be fine. The Starsan became diluted as you added the beer, and it's a foodsafe sanitizer. I would certainly wait to find out from Five Star, but I don't see any reason to be concerned.

The directions on the back of a qt. of Star San: 1 oz./5 gallon. For all applications allow to air dry (but surface must remain wet for at least one minute), do not rinse after application.

I don't see any where on the label, that the company says it's OK to drink at those dilutions, or at any dilution. Or, that dumping wort into a vessel that's wet from the stuff and full of bubbles is OK. Their lawyer told them not to. If a guy said he saw a vid of the chemist that made it, drinking it straight from the bottle. The chemist may not have any taste buds or skin left in his mouth, throat, or internal plumbing. Or, it was all theatrics. The MSDS has it listed as a Health Hazard 3. Which is quite severe. There's laundry detergent (Dodecylbenzene Sulfonic Acid), isopropyl alcohol and phosphoric acid in it. The phosphoric might be OK to drink as it's used in soda. The laundry detergent and isopropyl, I'm not so sure about. Ya know if you're going to put something in your body. I would think it would be better adviced not to drink a mixture of laundry detergent and sterno. No matter what the dilution is. Nor, to take advice from someone that has no idea of the consequences, short or long term, from ingesting it. If it kills bugs. In time, it probably will kill people. Just my .02.

Here is the response I got from five star... "It’s such a small amount the chemist said you will be fine. Let me know if you need anything else. Have a great day."

VladOfTrub said:

The directions on the back of a qt. of Star San: 1 oz./5 gallon. For all applications allow to air dry (but surface must remain wet for at least one minute), do not rinse after application.

I don't see any where on the label, that the company says it's OK to drink at those dilutions, or at any dilution. Or, that dumping wort into a vessel that's wet from the stuff and full of bubbles is OK. Their lawyer told them not to. If a guy said he saw a vid of the chemist that made it, drinking it straight from the bottle. The chemist may not have any taste buds or skin left in his mouth, throat, or internal plumbing. Or, it was all theatrics. The MSDS has it listed as a Health Hazard 3. Which is quite severe. There's laundry detergent (Dodecylbenzene Sulfonic Acid), isopropyl alcohol and phosphoric acid in it. The phosphoric might be OK to drink as it's used in soda. The laundry detergent and isopropyl, I'm not so sure about. Ya know if you're going to put something in your body. I would think it would be better adviced not to drink a mixture of laundry detergent and sterno. No matter what the dilution is. Nor, to take advice from someone that has no idea of the consequences, short or long term, from ingesting it. If it kills bugs. In time, it probably will kill people. Just my .02.

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Maybe you should read up on it before making such a brash statement. You make it sound like it's some kind of caustic chemical. It is crap like this that makes reading these forums so unreliable. Tell me, how do you explain star san having no effect on the yeast and fermentation even with high amounts still left in the wort? It's a mild acid solution that is neutralized by the higher ph of the wort. Even a whole ounce in a 12oz beer is rendered completely neutral and undetectable. It's called science...

"It is listed as a sanitizer and a bactericide by the FDA and the EPA, the container must list disposal warnings that are suitable for pesticides. Do not be alarmed; it is less hazardous on your skin than bleach."
-John Palmer (how to brew)

I accidentally drank some straight when I mouth syphoned (I know, noob sauce) with my first batch. It's harmless.

KeyWestBrewing said:

There was a thread in here a few months back where someone accidentally used star san solution instead of top up water. I also recall revvy mentioning a video where the owner of star san drank some straight from the bottle. I think if the beer tastes fine then there's no problem. Though the response the company gives you should tell you everything you need to know.

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VladOfTrub said:

The directions on the back of a qt. of Star San: 1 oz./5 gallon. For all applications allow to air dry (but surface must remain wet for at least one minute), do not rinse after application.

I don't see any where on the label, that the company says it's OK to drink at those dilutions, or at any dilution. Or, that dumping wort into a vessel that's wet from the stuff and full of bubbles is OK. Their lawyer told them not to. If a guy said he saw a vid of the chemist that made it, drinking it straight from the bottle. The chemist may not have any taste buds or skin left in his mouth, throat, or internal plumbing. Or, it was all theatrics. The MSDS has it listed as a Health Hazard 3. Which is quite severe. There's laundry detergent (Dodecylbenzene Sulfonic Acid), isopropyl alcohol and phosphoric acid in it. The phosphoric might be OK to drink as it's used in soda. The laundry detergent and isopropyl, I'm not so sure about. Ya know if you're going to put something in your body. I would think it would be better adviced not to drink a mixture of laundry detergent and sterno. No matter what the dilution is. Nor, to take advice from someone that has no idea of the consequences, short or long term, from ingesting it. If it kills bugs. In time, it probably will kill people. Just my .02.

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Beer_me_plz said:

Maybe you should read up on it before making such a brash statement. You make it sound like it's some kind of caustic chemical. It is crap like this that makes reading these forums so unreliable. Tell me, how do you explain star san having no effect on the yeast and fermentation even with high amounts still left in the wort? It's a mild acid solution that is neutralized by the higher ph of the wort. Even a whole ounce in a 12oz beer is rendered completely neutral and undetectable. It's called science...

"It is listed as a sanitizer and a bactericide by the FDA and the EPA, the container must list disposal warnings that are suitable for pesticides. Do not be alarmed; it is less hazardous on your skin than bleach."
-John Palmer (how to brew)

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To clear all this up, Star San is a very strong acid and will not be kind to you if you drink/touch it straight. The video was of the Starsan rep drink a glass of diluted (to the correct amount) of starsan. Starsan is basically 50% (I'll have to check that %'d) phosphoric acid, the same stuff you use to remove rust and stuff!
That means starsan at diluted strength is about 0.3% phosphoric acid, Coke probably has just a bit less than that!
Diluted starsan = ok
Full strength starsan = bad

Beer plz..
Use all you want. Especially, since it's so good for the brew. I mentioned only what is on the label, that the guy who made it, put on it. I don't see any where on it about ingesting it or that it's good for a brew. Since, Zainipalmer Joneesheff says it's great stuff. By all means, use it. The MSDS says a few other things, read it. Oh, by the way, I do know the difference between caustic and acidic. And just so you know, an acid can't be neutralized by another acid. The only thing that neutralizes an acid is a base. You've heard of Bicarbonate of Soda, Tums, or, not? They're a base, they neutralize acid. It's science. Since you may not have much knowledge of brewing water chemistry or for sure, what neutralizes an acid. Wort can be loaded with Carbonates from the water. Carbonates in the water are what buffers wort pH, hindering the yeast. I'm sure you know that. That's why acidulated malt and black malt are used. You've heard of them? That's why Guinness couldn't be brewed without the great quantity of black malt they use. It's used to counteract the buffering from the high Carbonate water used. Ya know why? It's all about the yeast. I'm sure you must know that. So, yes, I'd say you and Zainipalmer Jamijohnee are right, that the Star San would help in a high Carbonate poorly brewed beer, by bringing the pH down to where the yeast will work better. However, the only problem is, brewers that know what goes on, use lactic, not phosphoric for wort reduction. I'm sure you know that, since you're up on science.

What's with the all the attitude? You can debate your side without being condescending about it. Everyone here is just trying to help someone out with a mishap. Go be hostile in the debate forum.

Science or no science, I would drink OP's beer.

pannell77 said:

I mistakingly grabbed the wrong keg and siphoned my beer on top of the un-rinsed starsan keg and didn't realize it until it was over half full.

.

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why would you rinse the starsan?

We aren't talking about brewing water chemistry or acid adjustments. all I'm simply saying is the decrease in ph is so insignificant it will go unnoticed.

Typical finished beer has a ph around 4-4.3. concentrated star-San has roughly a ph of 1. That would make star San about 10,000x more acidic than beer. On the flip side the beer is 10,000x more basic than star san. If you look at the ratios .25oz at a ph of 1 into 640oz. at a ph 4.0... I'm not doing the math but it's not hard to see it will go unnoticed.

EDIT: from my earlier post I stated it would neutralized the star San. Vladoftrub you are right, obviously you cant neutralize an acid with an acid. but it will raise the ph well past what is considered safe. If I remember correctly coke has a ph around 2.5? Star San maintains its properties up to a ph of 3.

amandabab said:

why would you rinse the starsan?

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not really rinsing, but before adding water to the starsan to slosh around in the keg is what I meant.

this thread got way out of control. beer is going to be fine to consume and will be pouring in a couple days after carb is done.

Perhaps we should move this to the science forum, or perhaps even the debate forum as KeyWest mentioned...Anyway, I don't know why we're still going on about it, since he reports having already received word back from the real scientists at 5 Star saying he is fine!

However:
I think Vlad needs to reconsider some of his arguments...

As Beer me plz pointed out, while beer is acidic, it is much less so than the relatively tiny amount of phosphoric acid. It is effectively a base, or at least a buffer in this case. There is a lot more going on as well, since phosphoric is a triprotic acid, and in the environment of a weakly acidic wort, only one of the protons will dissociate anyway. Perhaps the OP can check the pH of his beer, if he's so equipped? Just for curiosity sake...

Water chemistry, water carbonate levels, need for darker malts or even acidulated malt has nothing to do with yeast and fermentation, and affects only the mash environment...

BowtiesAreCool said:

I accidentally drank some straight when I mouth syphoned (I know, noob sauce) with my first batch. It's harmless.

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Was is good? I am thinking of having some later.

biochemedic said:

Perhaps the OP can check the pH of his beer, if he's so equipped? Just for curiosity sake...

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I do not have the capability to test the pH right now, I would love to check it out though and see where its at just for curiosity sake. If I end up going to the store tonight I will look for some pH testing strips.

bknifefight said:

I realize that we are talking about un-diluted starsan here, but you realize that star san is a no rinse sanitizer, right?

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I know StarSan doesn't require rinsing, but do you guys rinse anyway? When I sanitize a carboy, I'll pour in a gallon or so of StarSan solution, swish it around and give it a good shake to make sure I get every corner, then dump it out.

The problem is that when I dump it out, there are still a lot of bubbles in the bottle. I don't mean just a couple on the sides here and there, I mean like the kind of froth you'd get in a sink full of dishwater. I pour in some cold tapwater, swish it around, and drain a few times (4-5) to try and wash out the bubbles. Should I not be doing this? Should I just let the carboy sit for 20 minutes or so for the bubbles to dissipate?

Tapwater unsanitizes the carboy, so no you shouldnt be doing that. Your tapwater shouldnt be riddled with bacteria though, so its not the worst thing you could do.

I always just rack on top of the starsan foam. It will dissipate and/or come out the top depending on how little headspace you have.

I leave the Carboy full of bubbles sit for a couple minutes and then pour out again. The bubbles settle some and you can definitely get more Starsan out by waiting a bit.

I wouldn't rinse with tap water. And if the Carboy is clean you don't need to shake the crap out of it, just a few times.

kombat said:

I know StarSan doesn't require rinsing, but do you guys rinse anyway? When I sanitize a carboy, I'll pour in a gallon or so of StarSan solution, swish it around and give it a good shake to make sure I get every corner, then dump it out.

The problem is that when I dump it out, there are still a lot of bubbles in the bottle. I don't mean just a couple on the sides here and there, I mean like the kind of froth you'd get in a sink full of dishwater. I pour in some cold tapwater, swish it around, and drain a few times (4-5) to try and wash out the bubbles. Should I not be doing this? Should I just let the carboy sit for 20 minutes or so for the bubbles to dissipate?

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The bubbles are your friend! They get in the nooks and crannies and do as good a job sanitizing as soaking. My usual MO is to do exactly like you do with about half a gallon of star san in my carboy. Then I place my auto siphon in the carboy with hosing attached and the end going back into the carboy. Give it a few good pumps to sanitize the inside and then shake it around again to get the out sides of the hose and auto siphon. I then shake off my hose and siphon and dump my carboy out. Then I begin my siphon with bubbles and all into the carboy. As long as you have a 30 sec wet contact time you should be good to go.

I avoid tap water unless it's for cleaning. I don't trust my tap water around here at all. There could be some nasties in there that could cause some serious contamination problems.



A couple people about 30 mins from where I live died recently from flushing out the there noses with those netti pots and using regular tap water. Something about amebas crawled in to their brains and killed them. I'm not kidding look it up. It was in DeSoto Parish Louisiana.

BTW this thread has been officially hi-jacked.:cross: