steeping vs mashing base grains

I have brewed a handful of recipes from seemingly reputable sources that call for the steeping of 2-row. In each case I steeped the grain in 4 gallons of water between 152 and 156 degrees for 45 minutes.

I am having a hard time understanding the difference between this method and actually mashing the grains. My original question stems from the use of Beersmith which places a "!" next to the grain when I select Extract as opposed to selecting Partial or All Grain. The resulting numbers are also significantly different.

Why would these numbers vary? Assuming time and temperature is constant, wouldn't steeping 2-row in 4 gallons of water produce the same fermentable sugars as mashing?

With those temps you just mashed your 2-row.

What you are doing is mashing, not steeping. Steeping is where you soak the grain that already has the sugar converted for you. Mashing is where you take the enzymes from the grain, and turn starches to sugars. While mashing and steeping are done exactly the same way, it's how you end up with sugar at the end that determines what you are doing. For example, your crystal malts have all of the sugars already converted for you. They are steeped. Pale Malt 2 row doesn't and they have the enzymes, they are mashed.

dwrags said:

Why would these numbers vary? Assuming time and temperature is constant, wouldn't steeping 2-row in 4 gallons of water produce the same fermentable sugars as mashing?

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Yes and no. Yes if you don't want to get nitpicky about it. But if you want to be technical about it, no. Actual mashing is going to get you to extract better and differently. The enzymes are going to be less concentrated in your steeping sack and give you technically different results. But, basically, yes you are doing the same thing as mashing them.

Beersmith probably just calculates steeping differently. Usually when you are doing an extract batch with some steeping, you aren't concerned so much about efficiency and it probably doesn't even take it into account. I would guess that the most appropriate mode for you would be "Partial Mash".

Thank you for the replies.

Everything you folks have stated seems so reasonable yet it varies from the many threads I have read on this very subject. A few opinions I have read include:

"Steeping base malts is pointless"
"Steeping 2-row will only get you unconverted startch"
"2-row really needs to be mashed"
"If you are steeping you need to select "Extract""

Is it possible that there is some impact on the ability of the enzyme to convert sugars in large volumes of water? Why else would Beersmith not contribute any sugars from 2-row to a wort when "Extract" is selected?

is there a reason to steep grains when doing all grain batches? I thought you would just throw it in with the mash.

Never thought about it until I read your last line in quotation marks.

dwrags said:

Is it possible that there is some impact on the ability of the enzyme to convert sugars in large volumes of water? Why else would Beersmith not contribute any sugars from 2-row to a wort when "Extract" is selected?

Click to expand...

That's precisely right. Conversion not only depends on a certain temperature range, but on a certain volume of liquor to grain. Too little or too much, and conversion will not occur.

1-1.5 quarts per pound of grain will ensure conversion.

Cheers,

Bob

nm

Really what it comes down to is steeping is just for flavor. If you get some conversion on your steeped grains that's great, but that's not the intent of it. That's why most people will tell you not to steep pale malt.

Mashing and steeping are very different processes chemically, but procedurally they are very similar. From the brewer's perspective, mashing is like steeping at a more controlled temperature, water-to-grist ratio and pH. And many, but not all all-grain brewers use somewhat different equipment, such as a dedicated mash tun, which may be a cooler with a false bottom, slotted manifold or stainless mesh hose, or a direct-fired insulated kettle.

In all-grain brewing, steeping grains can either be added to the mash tun along with the base malt (most common), added late during the mash (when astringency from roasted malts is a concern), or steeped separately. It really doesn't matter. If you add any malt extract to the boil, then you are doing a partial mash, aka mini-mash.

dwrags said:

I have brewed a handful of recipes from seemingly reputable sources that call for the steeping of 2-row. In each case I steeped the grain in 4 gallons of water between 152 and 156 degrees for 45 minutes.

I am having a hard time understanding the difference between this method and actually mashing the grains. My original question stems from the use of Beersmith which places a "!" next to the grain when I select Extract as opposed to selecting Partial or All Grain. The resulting numbers are also significantly different.

Why would these numbers vary? Assuming time and temperature is constant, wouldn't steeping 2-row in 4 gallons of water produce the same fermentable sugars as mashing?

Click to expand...

The real question is how much 2-row was in the 4 gallons? If it was a pound or two, the "mash" was really too thin and the pH was probably too high for conversion to occur. The buffering capacity of that little grain wasn't capable of bringing the pH down to the 5-5.6 range in that much water. You'll get a lot of differing opinions on how thin is too thin, but a decent limit is 3qts per pound max.

You can steep 2-row just like you can steep any other grains, you'll get some light color and a hint of grain flavor out of it. It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense though - as 2-row's purpose is in serving as a base grain with high diastatic power to help you covert starches to sugars both in the 2-row and in any specialty malts that you use, which generally have low diastatic power. This article gives a pretty good explanation of the process and why all of this stuff matters:

http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/

The recipes I have used typically call for either .5 or 1 pound of 2-row to be steeped.

I guess what has confused me is the fact that while you see this ingredient in so many extract recipes, the general consensus is that it contributes very little to the final product. Beersmith appears to agree with this consensus as the numbers change very little when adding 2-row in "Extract" mode.

Upon reading these replies, I can only assume that this ingredient, in such a small amount, only serves to provide a slight taste of grains and very little color. Perhaps this is a good excuse to execute a little experiment ... with a few more batches of course!

Thanks again for the help!