PLEASE HELP! Newbie questions...

Hi there, need some help with my first attempt at cider...

My friend has a small orchard at the end of their garden and we keep missing the opportunity to gather the apples each year...this year we managed to organise ourselves!

So, collected a wheelbarrow full of apples...mushed them...squeezed them...and ended up with about 20 litres of juice. put this into a clean foodsafe bucket.

Following some very basic instructions on the web... we believed we just had to leave the juice uncovered inside for a few days whilst it begins to froth-up...then when the activity slows...put in demijohns with airlocks and wait a few months.

The juice has been sitting for 3 days now and small mould spots are appearing on the surface...but nothing much else is happening. After reading more on the web...I see the safe route is to add campden tablets and then yeast... is it too late for us to do this? or should we stick with what we are doing? mould cant be a good sign!???

Any help would be much appreciated... we plan on collecting another batch of apples this weekend...but lots of work went into getting the first 20 litres...and we would much rather save this batch!

Thank you all for your time.


Ben.

It should still be ok to pitch some yeast. rehydrate the yeast first in a bowl of warm water at 35c for 15 minutes. Taste the juice to see if it tastes ok. Have you been taking hydrometer readings? You should check every day or 2 until it stabilises at or just below zero.

Hi, thanks for the quick reply...

we first tested the juice the day after and it read 1.050, it is still the same 3 days later... is this because the fermentation has not started?

where should I go from here? should I buy some of the campden tablets and put them in? and yeast? if so..which yeast...so many kinds!

thanks for your help...really dont want to do it wrong!

Ben.

I'm also a noob, but I've done a lot of research and it looks like you can use any yeast, but in order of most common/desireable they would be:
Champagne
Dry white wine
Any wine
Ale
Bread (you have to be really desperate, haha)

I list them all because I had a hell of a time finding champagne yeast near me.

do i need to do any of the camden tablet business???

I've only done 1 cider using champagne yeast; it took a very long time and came out very dry/tart. I had to keg it and after adding 2 cans of frozen apple juice concentrate it is actually pretty good -- something like a woodchuck cider.

Doing a natural fermentation - which is what the first poster described - is possible, but you really have to be careful with sanitation. Natural ferments can take from 1 to 7 days to start. If you do this again, I'd recommend using fresh pressed juice, filling a demijon up so that there is very little air in the top and use an airlock.

Normally for fresh pressed juice I would recommend not using campden, just be careful with sanitation, but in this case where the juice has been sitting open for 3 days, I'd use the campden and pitch the yeast 24 hours later

if you want a dry cider that you sip by the glass, use champagne or wine yeast. If you want to drink it by the pint, use ale, lager or wheat yeast. Read the sticky for more details

ok, many thanks...so...

do i add the campden tablets...leave for 24hrs, add the yeast...then leave open still?
i have the demijohns and airlocks, just not sure when to transfer to them? once the level drops from 1.050 to 1.000?

thanks,

ben.

I use carboys like the ones on the last page of the sticky for primary fermentation. I know a lot of recipes just call for leaving the cider in an open pail for a while, but this seems like adding a lot of unnecessary risk to the process.

Once you pitch the yeast put an airlock on it right away to avoid letting any more bacteria and oxygen into your brew. Rack it when the hydrometer reading stabilizes over a period of a few days (my ciders usually finish anywhere from 1.005 to 0.990, sometimes lower). Depending on the temperature and the yeast you use it should only take a couple of weeks.

I would pitch the yeast straight away and not worry about camden until primary has finished. 1.050 is a good sg, you should get a nice cider.

Ok, to make things even more complicated... I looked at the juice today and its frothing up lots! i guess this means the natural yeast is doing its thing!? so...do I need to add anything now? or do i cover and add airlock...wait for it to lower...then add to demijohns with airlocks?

sorry for all the questions...wish I had done more investigation before I started!!!

Ben.

If the natural yeast ferment started, I'd say let it go and see how it turns out. I'd cover it or get it in a demijon ASAP though, to reduce chances of contamination.

keep it as cool as you can - wild ferments do better slow

natural ferments often get weird tasting when the SG drops below 1.020, so you probably want to taste this periodically and cold crash it if it starts getting funky

hmmm, its not smelling very nice now...perhaps it would be better to add campden tabs then yeast? or if its smelling bad and tasing bad...have we lost this batch?

Don't worry about the fermentation smell. It will go away.

It sounds like the natural ferment is far enough along by now that its probably too late to stop it. Odds are still good that it will come out well. Dont go by smell now, go by taste. Even fermenting hard, it should be sweet for several more days. As the sugar ferments out, it will be easier to taste the natural yeast signature and know where it is headed. Usually the cooler and slower it goes the better the yeast does. What are your temps?

The best natural fermented batches I've done were stopped between 1.014 and 1.020. I've gotten a few natural batches to ferment all the way out to 1.000 without getting weird tasting, but they didnt have a lot of taste either. You may have better luck with your local yeast, but in the meantime you may want to think about your options for stopping the cider at some point down the line before it gets drier than you want - unless really dry is what you are looking for.

Hi there, thanks for the msg's...

I tested the juice this morn and its at 1.045 now (1.050 originally), so moving very very slowly. Its being kept in the kitchen in an out-building, the heating hasnt been turned on for this winter yet...so temps are ranging from 10c to 18c. I can turn the heating on to keep it at any temp in that room...what would be best?

The juice is being kept in a fermenting bin at the mo (I put a lid on this the other day to stop any further air getting to it). Is it ok to leave it in this bin at the mo? or should it be transfered to demijohns?... I have loads! If it should stay in the fermenting bin I will add an airlock...as I havent doen this yet, dont want any fermeting bin explosions!
...also, the frothing seems to have gone now...is this right?

You mention 'stopping the cider' how is this done? and how do i know what reading to stop it at? taste?

sorry for all the questions...but im really appreciating the help!
...there is about 15 to 20l of juice at the moment, but we have another massive batch of apples (and some pears) to juice yet! probably another 40 litres!!! want to get this first batch sorted before we attack the rest!

Ben.

I am a newb too so take my advice with a grain of salt....infact ive never brewed before ever. This is knowledge found by reading some books and trolling this site.


from what i understand after the juice starts to ferment its time to move it into a demijohn with an airlock. This will help prevent harmful bacterias from getting in. Fill the demi enough so that you have room for head. It may also be a good idea to fill the airlock with vodka instead of water as an added level of microbial protection.

Stopping the cider can be done by putting it into a refrigerator or something cold. This will stop or at least greatly slow the yeast. You can stop it when you feel the taste is right or you can read the sticky on this site and figoure out a good time to stop it.


I hope this helps...and I also hope someone will correct me if any of what I have said is incorrect.

Cold temps are good for a natural ferment, so it goes nice and slow - just as long as it doesnt freeze. How big are your demijohns? Personally, I would have started it in a 6 gal better bottle, like the ones you see in the sticky - its easier to keep the air out and see what is going on with those - although I'm not sure if they sell these in the UK. Hard to say if it would be better to transfer now or not. I usually dont do the first rack until the sg has dropped to about 1.020. The main thing is you want to make sure that as little air as possible gets into your cider. The heavy frothing period usually lasts just a few days, but you should still see bubbles rising up. The best way to stop cider IMHO is to cold crash it, before all of the apple sugar is fermented out. Search for "cold crash" in the forum or read the sticky for more info. Be advised that if you cold crash, you will not be able to bottle carbonate - you will either need to carbonate with a keg or drink it still. OTOH, the chances of a natural ferment getting dry enough that you can bottle carbonate and still taste decent on the first attempt are slim. The traditional cider houses that do this instead of adding carb with tanks have been working it out for generations. Yes, check by taste. For wild ferments, I usually start tasting at 1.020.

Open air fermentation seems like too much risk to me. I'm kinda curious how it will turn out though. For future reference please please please find some sort of an actually fermentation vessel that you can close up and use an airlock with. and btw clean does not mean sanitary. 20 liters = slightly more than 5 gallon correct? also, what temp are you keeping it at? another point, and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but the new trend with cider seems to be ale yeast.

Ok.. update... (and a bit more advice please!)...

The natural juice has now reached 1.035 and so still seems to be dropping, perhaps when it reaches 1.010 we should put it into demijohns with airlocks? its still in the fermenting bucket at the mo.

Secondly... we have started mushing/pressing the larger batch of apples... which we think will produce about 50 litres of juice. Once we have collected the juice we plan to add the correct amount of campden tablets (1 per gallon) then leave in fermenting bin for 48hrs. Then we plan to add yeast, a friend collected some called 'youngs super wine yeast', which I fear might be a little lively for cider? once we have added the yeast should we put into demijohns with airlocks immediately? or leave in fermenting bin until the desired gravity reading has been reached? Our fermenting bin does not have an airlock...but we can add one if required?

Sorry for all the questions, I hope you can confirm/change our plan!?

Many thanks,

Ben.

It would be easier to just do the whole ferment in the demijohn, but you don't need airlocks while it is fermenting strongly. Just do whatever you are comfortable with.

Most of the traditional cider houses stop their natural ferments somewhere between 1.015 and 1.025. I would start tasting when it hits 1.025 and when you like the taste, cold crash it (search forum for cold crash for info). Natural ferments can pick up some weird flavors when they get below 1.020 and even if they dont get weird, they usually dont have much taste left below 1.004.

What sort of finish are you looking for when its done? Wine yeast will get it fairly dry. Are you planning to bottle or do you have kegs?