Horrible Lager.. What went wrong?

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Kula

Kula

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Brewed up my first lager/pilsener, and just tasted it as I racked it into a secondary after 4 weeks in primary, and let me tell you, this thing tasted horrible.

Here's the recipe I jury-rigged from what I had on hand.

(3 gal batch)

4 lbs Briess pilsener malt
1 lb Munich malt
1 lb dry malt
4 ounces of cascade and crystal

-two decoctions, sacc rest at ~ 150*
-60 min boil, w/ additions at 60, 45, 0
-pitched Wyeast CZECH pils at about 78*
-fermented at 52* for 21 days, slowly raised to 60* over a week.
-was going to lager at ~ 40* for three weeks.

OG - 1.049
FG - 1.012

NOTES:

Smack Pack did not swell after three days, ( I had noticed it was 9 months since MFD ) that's why I smacked it in advance.

I didn't see activity for 2.5 days or so. I oxygenated by shaking my carboy vigorously. When I didn't see activity at day 2, I gave it another shake.

Anyway,

The taste is very bitter, kind of acrid bitter, not hop round bitter. Almost no hint of malt, just this almost rubber or plastic taste that coats the tongue.

The fermentation smelled quite strange too, granted it was my first lager so I didn't know what to expect. Still, it was very vegetal, very sour, sulfur, strange aromas coming from the airlock.

I'm kind of thinking chuck the thing at this point. I can't imagine this turning into anything drinkable. Or maybe I just don't know lagers. Mostly, I'm curious about what happened, or IS happening.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

K
 
So you only pitched with the one smack pack that you had left out for 3 days? Looks like you not only didn't have enough yeast, but you used really old yeast. My guess is that another wild yeast (and probably some bacteria) fermented out your beer.
 
Don't chuck it. You've spent too much time/energy making it. Let it lager for a month and see if things mellow out. Many people are surprised what time will do for their beer.

Off a quick glance, that seems like a lot of hops for a 3 gallon batch of lager. I don't know what you added and when, but I just ran a quick scenario assuming 1 oz at 60 with 5% AA, 1 oz at 45 with 5% AA, and 2 oz at flameout and I've got your IBU's coming in at about 65 with a BU/GU ratio of 1.3. That is off the charts high for a typical lager. Keep in mind, I'm assuming by dry malt you mean DME that was added to the boil rather than mashed.

Hope this helps.

cp
 
daverose,

yeah, that was the only yeast I pitched.

cpoole,

that was about my hopping schedule but when my buddy ran it through beersmith it was within range, something like 38-40, for a pilsener, perhaps we screwed that up, or maybe that's really what it was based on the AA% of the hops I had, dunno, but I don't think that's exactly what I'm tasting here.

The **** was acrid homie!

I've read DMS can be produced with a slow start like I had. Perhaps that could have been enhanced by my 2nd, late agitation?

Could I have got autolysis like off-flavors from pitching too much crap yeast? Doesn't that produce rubbery notes and flavors?

I think I will let it lager for a few weeks, then try it. But I've got a bad feeling about this one.

Not too sad about the beer, but if I don't learn anything, then I really will be disappointed!
 
Also,

I've been fermenting in my apartment, out of direct sunlight, but not in the dark. Just kind of low, ambient daylight.

Skunked?
 
Kula said:
daverose,

yeah, that was the only yeast I pitched.

cpoole,

that was about my hopping schedule but when my buddy ran it through beersmith it was within range, something like 38-40, for a pilsener, perhaps we screwed that up, or maybe that's really what it was based on the AA% of the hops I had, dunno, but I don't think that's exactly what I'm tasting here.

The **** was acrid homie!

I've read DMS can be produced with a slow start like I had. Perhaps that could have been enhanced by my 2nd, late agitation?

Could I have got autolysis like off-flavors from pitching too much crap yeast? Doesn't that produce rubbery notes and flavors?

I think I will let it lager for a few weeks, then try it. But I've got a bad feeling about this one.

Not too sad about the beer, but if I don't learn anything, then I really will be disappointed!
Click to expand...

You posted the times of your hop additions, but not the quantity per addition or the specs of those hops used at those additions. I can assure you that unless you added 3 of the 4 oz at flameout you were not anywhere near 40 IBU's with a 60 and 45 minute addition using typical Crystal and Cascade hop profiles. This is still assuming the dry malt you listed is DME that was added to the boil and was not mashed.

If you could let us know the quantity and specs of the hop additions along with the dry malt verification we could tie this issue down and either add it as a potential cause to your issues or rule it out.
 
My first lager was very similar. I definately underpitched and I think that was the biggest issue. I really didnt notice rubbery flavor but it had a terrible harsh bitter atringent thing going on. I had to blend it with other beers to drink it.

I just got a pH meter and my last beer using that and adjusting my water came out very good. I was getting some of the astringency in some ales also and I think adjusting my water is clearing it up.
 
Kula said:
(3 gal batch)
4 ounces of cascade and crystal
-pitched Wyeast CZECH pils at about 78*
Click to expand...

This is your main reason for the off-balanced beer. Cascade hops simply do not go with lagers, especially European Lagers. You got too much hops for 3 gal batch. Were you going for an American-Czech-IPA-Lager? I would stick with a more recognizable style, at least at the beginning.
 
Crystal hops would be perfectly fine for a lager. Cascade is a little outside the norm, but woudn't ruin the beer. I think his primary issue with hops is quantity (which you address), not necessarily choice.
 
Ischiavo,

thanks for those comments. i think you're right, it was definitely under-pitched. i used ~ 2 Gal distilled water, and the rest was filtered tap. i'll look into the water issue more though.

CPoole,

hop additions were thus,

60) 1.0 cascade
45) 1.0 crystal
15) .5 casc, .5 cryst.
0) .5 casc., .5 cryst.

Scooby,

i hear you on the style thing. i know crystal & cascade are not typical for this style and it was probably over-hopped, but to my taste this is something else.

Perhaps I am wrong and my wacky hop choices doomed this batch.

Also, the hops were well packaged, and stored in the freezer, but old, years old. Pils malt was a bit old too.

Buddy had these ingredients lying around, that's why I threw the beer together. Looking like it could have been a combination of things now.

I think we might have calculated hop amounts for 5 gallons, plus, the age of the hops made me think 'the more the merrier'

thanks for the feedback gents..
 
Kula said:
-was going to lager at ~ 40* for three weeks.


K
Click to expand...

Guys, has anyone notice this? He hasn't LAGERED it yet?!?!?!?!?!?!

He hasn't done the one thing to get rid of the off flavors inherant in fermentations using lager yeast.

No wonder your beer tastes like crap yet, you haven't done the most important step.

Lagering is done after fermentation is complete. Usually the beer is transfered to a secondary and cooled to 34-40°F. This is stored at this temp for up to 2 weeks. During this time, the beer "cleans up." Chemically the goal is to allow the levels of diacetyl, acetaldehyde and sulfur compounds to decrease.
Click to expand...

GO back and read this. How To Brew-What is Different for Brewing Lager Beer?

Lager yeast produces lots of nasty smells and flavors, lagering, cleans them up.

If you neglect the lagering phase, you are left with beer that smells and tastes nasty. Like you have now.

Geez....didn't anyone read his whole post? What are you gonna do when I'm in the hospital? ;)

Now go stick your horrible beer in a nice cold place for a couple weeks, then make it colder for a couple more weeks...And then come back and tell us how much better it is. In fact send me a few bottles, I should be able to drink again in about 8-10 weeks, when this beer should be clean and tasty. In that time even your hops should mellow. I mean who's complaining about 4 ounces in a 5 gallon batch, that's called an ipl (India Pale Lager, in my book)?!?!

:mug:
 
revvy,

haha. thanks for the comments!

i was kind of waiting for someone to chime in and say LAGER IT DUMB-ASS!

seeing as i am a virgin in the land of lagers, i thought there might be a sliver of a chance that the demons would dispel in a month or two.

it just tastes like such ass now, that i had a hard time imagining it making the journey from Swill to Pils.

you know what? i am gonna lager this fool! and if it DOES turn out alright, i definitely will send you a few!
 
and in all fairness..

cpoole did suggest straight-away lagering it to see if it mellowed..

hope you guys are right!
 
*shakes head* ;)


This is why I caution new brewers NOT to taste anything til it's done. You know only enough to be dangerous, and you don't yet realize how nasty, stinky and ugly the process is....on normal days. So you sure as heck don't know what an abnormal fermentation is yet

Besides, how many times do I have to tell folks, you have to see the process through.

I post this all the time.....but it's even more true for a lager...

Why do you think there is a lagering phase to begin with? To torture new brewers? Because lagers taste like ass if you don't do it. ;)

Tattoo this on your backside.....or something.

Revvy said:
Singljohn hit the nail on the head...The only problem is that you aren't seeing the beer through it's complete process BEFORE calling what is probably just green beer, an off flavor.

It sounds like you are tasting it in the fermenter? If that is the case, do nothing. Because nothing is wrong.

It really is hard to judge a beer until it's been about 6 weeks in the bottle. Just because you taste (or smell) something in primary or secondary DOESN'T mean it will be there when the beer is fully conditioned (that's also the case with kegging too.)

The thing to remember though is that if you are smelling or tasting this during fermentation not to worry. During fermentation all manner of stinky stuff is given off (ask lager brewers about rotten egg/sulphur smells, or Apfelwein makers about "rhino farts,") like we often say, fermentation is often ugly AND stinky and PERFECTLY NORMAL.

It's really only down the line, AFTER the beer has been fermented (and often after it has bottle conditioned even,) that you concern yourself with any flavor issues if they are still there.

I think too many new brewers focus to much on this stuff too early in the beer's journey. And they panic unnecessarily.

A lot of the stuff you smell/taste initially more than likely ends up disappearing either during a long primary/primary & secondary combo, Diacetyl rests and even during bottle conditioning.

If I find a flavor/smell, I usually wait til it's been in the bottle 6 weeks before I try to "diagnose" what went wrong, that way I am sure the beer has passed any window of greenness.

Lagering is a prime example of this. Lager yeast are prone to the production of a lot of byproducts, the most familiar one is sulphur compounds (rhino farts) but in the dark cold of the lagering process, which is at the minimum of a month (I think many homebrewers don't lager long enough) the yeast slowly consumes all those compounds which results in extremely clean tasting beers if done skillfully.

Ales have their own version of this, but it's all the same. Time is your friend.

If you are sampling your beer before you have passed a 'window of greeness" which my experience is about 3-6 weeks in the bottle, then you are more than likely just experiencing an "off flavor" due to the presence of those byproducts (that's what we mean when we say the beer is "green" it's still young and unconditioned.) but once the process is done, over 90% of the time the flavors/smells are gone.

Of the remaining 10%, half of those may still be salvageable through the long time storage that I mention in the Never dump your beer!!! Patience IS a virtue!!! Time heals all things, even beer:

And the remaining 50% of the last 10% are where these tables and lists come into play. To understand what you did wrong, so you can avoid it in the future.

Long story short....I betcha that smell/flavor will be long gone when the beer is carbed and conditioned.

In other words, relax, your beer will be just fine, like 99.5%.

You can find more info on that in here;

Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning.

Just remember it will not be the same beer it is now, and you shouldn't stress what you are tasting right now.

Our beer is more resilient then most new brewers realize, and time can be a big healer. Just read the stories in this thread of mine, and see how many times a beer that someone thought was bad, turned out to be fine weeks later.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ne...virtue-time-heals-all-things-even-beer-73254/
Click to expand...

:mug:
 
I have found most most brewers who post in HBT who try something new are a little impatient/overzealous/fixated. Lagering will help tremendously, indeed. I only taste my work prior to pitching and just prior to force-carbonation. These two points help set my expectations as well as provide any opportunities for small tweaks.

Your brew definitely sounds like a unique pils. Let us know what it tastes like post-lagering!

Enjoy!
 
appreciate the posts.

and yes, i am a newish brewer. and i stated upfront that i was not at all familiar with brewing lagers.

i do realize the point of lagering though.

but, from what i have gained in my limited experience, AND, from what i have read, vegetal, and especially rubber smells, are not good, and can mean infection.

i actually have read the post you re-posted. i'm familiar with the process just enough to know that beers change dramatically through the course of fermentation and aging.

will i continue to taste the beer before it's bottled? yes, i likely will. i prefer to see how the beer changes, what flavors will mellow out, and which wont. the process is what fascinates me.

i'm not just trying to brew good beer, i'm trying to learn about the alchemy of it all. i feel i learn better with a hands-on approach that might involve some trial and error, much better than if i simply go by what so-&-so said to do. know what i mean?

not to discredit the advice and experience of all the great brewers out there, that would just be stupid.

that fact that i dont know what "an abnormal fermentation" results in, is exactly why i posted this.

thanks guys.
 
Cool hand, Revvy, CPoole,

awesome feedback all around.

I'm going to lager this sub 40* for at least 3 or 4 weeks.

I'll let you all know how it turns out.

If anyone thinks of anything else, would love to hear from you...
 
One thing I would like to add, though he didn't mention butter specifically - diacetyl. He was concerned about the yeast viability and underpitching, and this can also lead to an increase in diacetyl. Also, because maybe the sulfidey rubber/plastic is so strong its overwhelming his ability to detect the flavor of the diacetyl, but he did mention that it felt like it was coating his tongue - another giveaway.

I would be sure to do a diacetyl rest before the mandatory lagering phase.
 
Kula said:
but, from what i have gained in my limited experience, AND, from what i have read, vegetal, and especially rubber smells, are not good, and can mean infection.
.
Click to expand...

But like I say over and over.....go by what you have read about "off flavors" After the process has been completed, and the beer has been in the bottle at least 6 weeks.

Because a lot of those same descriptors can be used for the normal nasty a$$ed crap of regular HEALTHY fermentation, when the beer is green.

As good as those off flavor chart info is, taken out of its proper context (meaning fully matured, carbed and conditioned beers) these threads/lists often produce the new brewer's version of hypochondria.

I dare you to taste a krausen...any krasuen and you will swear someone had died 2 weeks before in your fermenter while going to the bathroom and vomiting at the same, after having not bathed for 6 months....

The only difference is after all the various stages of the journey are complete, the flavors aren't there.

If the flavors are there and it's been 6 weeks in the bottle, take out that handy dandy chart and learn what you did wrong for next time. But also unless it truly is bacterial, stick the beers away for 6 months, and come back...because as the stories in the "never dump your beer thread" attest to, you'd really be surprised what can happen in the back of your closet.
 
wildwest,

good suggestion on the starter.

before this brew, i've only rehydrated dry yeast before pitching my 5 gallon batches and had decent results as far as i could tell.

building starters, cultivating yeast counts, and establishing correct pitching rates is something i am just now beginning to study up on.
 
The lagering process can help but cannot guarantee it will fix your beer. A lot of lagers that made to the second round of the national BCJP competition were not even lagered, so don't get your hopes too high, sorry.

First of all, your beer is completely unbalanced. Looking at your grain bill, it appears that you were trying to make a pilsner. Cascade is totally inappropriate for a pilsner! 4oz of hops is way too much for a 3 gal batch. So, that bitterness will linger for a very long time in your final product, probably much longer than when you want it finished.

Second, you never shake a fermented beer! The chances of introducing oxygen are enormous when you do that.

And finally, did you actually do a diacetyl rest for 1 week? I believe 48 to perhaps 72 hours is the maximum, but 24 hours is usually sufficient. The lager yeast produces many undesirable after-tastes when fermenting at high temperature, that’s why you should never do a high temperature rest that long.

So, if I were you, I would lager and carbonate it normally, why not, but don’t expect a great beer. Whether it’s going to be drinkable or not… it’s very personal!
 
Well done Revvy. Though I have an issue with your reading comprehension.:)

The batch was 3 gallons, not 5. I wouldn't have had near the issue with the hop amounts if it were 5.

Kula, thanks for providing the hop schedule. However, we still don't have the AA's so I'll assume 5% for each since that's in range for both of those hops.

Assuming the dry malt was DME added to the boil late and not mashed I have your IBU's at about 82. That puts your BU/GU ratio at 1.64. Way too high for a typical lager imo.

However, this doesn't mean you've ruined anything. Lager it and see what it tastes like after a month and a half to 2 months (assuming you bottle).

Good luck.

cp
 
allright! allright already revvy!

i'm not sure how, but you've managed to discourage, crack me up, and inspire me all in a just a few posts.

well done lad, well done.

K
 
CPooley4 said:
Well done Revvy. Though I have an issue with your reading comprehension.:)

The batch was 3 gallons, not 5. I wouldn't have had near the issue with the hop amounts if it were 5.


cp
Click to expand...

Actually i originally had three typed , then thought I misread/mistyped and without going back to re-read I changed it. But still whoever said too many hops is a bad thing. :)
 
Indyking,

I shook it up before I saw signs of fermentation. Not suer if this is the same as what you meant.

Diacety Rest?

l I brought it up from 52* to 64* over about 5 days, then racked it to secondary to begin lagering at sub-40*
 
Kula said:
allright! allright already revvy!

i'm not sure how, but you've managed to discourage, crack me up, and inspire me all in a just a few posts.

well done lad, well done.

K
Click to expand...

I don't want to discourage you, just the opposite, I want you to relax, and realize hard to f this brewing stuff up. Most of the time when someone things ther's something wrong, the only thing that is, is that the brewer is impatient and assesing too early in the process.

There's a reason why we tell you to RDWHAHB.....;)
 
Shaking head vigorously at this "This is why I caution new brewers NOT to taste anything til it's done."

I consider it most important for new brewers to taste at every possible step of the way. Your first batches are a learning experience. How would a new brewer know when it's done? Hydrometer isn't going to tell him that the Lager process is over, just going to be relying on various off the cuff rules like so many weeks per gravity points, etc.

TASTE TASTE TASTE TILL BUBBLES ARE SHOOTING OUT OF YOUR NOSE and then take another sip for good measure.
 
While the recipe is strange, it sounds to me like most of the problem is that this is the OP's first lager. The yeasts are totally different, and throw off some vile tastes and odors sometimes. Underpitching at 78F and then cooling almost 30 degrees doesn't help, either.

I always taste my hydro sample before lagering, and it almost always tastes weird. Like others have said, that's why you lager a lager.
 
samc said:
Shaking head vigorously at this "This is why I caution new brewers NOT to taste anything til it's done."

I consider it most important for new brewers to taste at every possible step of the way. Your first batches are a learning experience. How would a new brewer know when it's done? Hydrometer isn't going to tell him that the Lager process is over, just going to be relying on various off the cuff rules like so many weeks per gravity points, etc.

TASTE TASTE TASTE TILL BUBBLES ARE SHOOTING OUT OF YOUR NOSE and then take another sip for good measure.
Click to expand...

But you have no idea what you are tasting or what it even means when you are starting off. I think what Revvy is trying to drive home is that early on when you are not really sure what is going on, you are going to cause way more harm than good tasting an unfinished process. Hence all the freakout posts from beginning brewers.
 
Kula said:
Indyking,

I shook it up before I saw signs of fermentation. Not suer if this is the same as what you meant.

Diacety Rest?

l I brought it up from 52* to 64* over about 5 days, then racked it to secondary to begin lagering at sub-40*
Click to expand...

That's what you said:

Kula said:
I didn't see activity for 2.5 days or so. I oxygenated by shaking my carboy vigorously. When I didn't see activity at day 2, I gave it another shake.
Click to expand...

Which means, at day 2 after pitching, you shaked it :eek:

Just because you did not notice signs of fermentation at day 2, it does not mean it was not fermenting! It was a bad idea.

Nevertheless, like I said before, your recipe was just very unbalanced and inappropriate for the style and the diacetyl rest was way too long, sorry to say this. Pilsner is the lager type most sensitive to off-tastes and there were plenty of opportunities for undesirable flavors in your beer.

It happens, I once tried to make an ”waste basket ale”, by combining all the left over ingredients I had in stock and the result was catastrophic... I still drank it though because it was in the light hoppy side, but yours... I'm not sure I would stand that much bitterness... Pilsners can't hide anything!
 
-pitched Wyeast CZECH pils at about 78*
Click to expand...

Aside from going through the Lagering, this jumped out at me. That's too warm to pitch for an Ale let alone a Lager. Next time try to pitch when you get your wort chilled down closer to your target Fermentation temp.
 
yea, i think i'm trying to find a balance between samc's 'taste, taste, taste' and revvy's 'don't judge a beer til it's done'

because i think both ways of looking at it are vaild.

appreciate all the responses, it's really helping me think out my entire process.

the good news is i started an oatmeal stout about the same time as this 'ill pils', and that one is tasting real gooooooood.

so at least the pipeline is safe!
 
good points on the pitching temp guys. i've been reading a bit more about that lately and it seems integral in getting those little bastards off on the right foot.

if it turns out, great, if it doesn't, i've already learned a lot about looking at my process every step of the way.

clearly, lager yeasts are a temperamental breed.
 
will i continue to taste the beer before it's bottled? yes, i likely will. i prefer to see how the beer changes, what flavors will mellow out, and which wont. the process is what fascinates me.
Click to expand...
I agree with samc on this one. EVERY home brewer does it (OK, 99.9% of them) so telling them not to is just a waste. It's part of the learning process and I think they SHOULD do it.

I also agree with whoever posted earlier that lagering isn't some miracle work. None of my best lagers (nor any beers) were terrible after the fermentation was done and the yeast had settled reasonably well. They do improve but it rarely turns 'undrinkable' into 'delicious'.

Hopefully it will improve a bunch and you'll like it. But if not just chalk it up to learning. Make enough beer and you'll make some stinkers; we all do. Either that or your standards are very low or you have pretty-baby-syndrome (which I think most of us have to some degree).
 
Kula said:
good points on the pitching temp guys. i've been reading a bit more about that lately and it seems integral in getting those little bastards off on the right foot.

if it turns out, great, if it doesn't, i've already learned a lot about looking at my process every step of the way.

clearly, lager yeasts are a temperamental breed.
Click to expand...


Don't be undiscouraged if your beer end up tasting bad.

All great textbook authors say the same: Pilsner is the most difficult style to brew, especially in a homebrew set up.

We learn from our mistakes...
 
probably gonna get yelled at. i don't have temp control. if i brewed a lager at room temperature then lagered it in the fridge long enough would the flavors from high ferm temps lager out? please don't hit me.:eek:
 

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