Historical Beer: Piwo Grodziskie "Piwo Kielich" -- Grätzer/Grodziskie style ale

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ReverseApacheMaster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Messages
4,877
Reaction score
261
Location
Keller, Texas
Recipe Type
All Grain
Yeast
1338
Yeast Starter
1L
Batch Size (Gallons)
1
Original Gravity
1.051
Final Gravity
1.015
Boiling Time (Minutes)
90
IBU
32.6
Color
3.5
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
21 @ 68
Tasting Notes
Awesome!
I first got hip to this idea in this thread and after doing a lot of research (as much as I could find, which isn't much) I finally drafted a recipe and gave it a whirl. I noticed there isn't a proper recipe listed here, so I'm staking claim to the first recipe of this kind on HBT! :tank:

A lot of recipes out there are "cheaters versions" that use part wheat and part rauchmalt to get a smokey wheat flavor. I wanted to try to be as authentic as possible, so I went straight home-smoked wheat malt. I'll detail the rather simple process of smoking the malt and then get into the recipe.

Smoking the malt

The trick to getting the smokey flavor to stick to the grain is to (lightly) soak the grains in water overnight before you get them in the smoker. Not only will the water help to absorb smoke, but it will also help keep the grains cool and make sure you aren't roasting as much as you are smoking. It's best to soak them in a small amount of water, so if you have a wide oven pan it would work best to spread the grain as thin as possible and then heavily mist them with a spray bottle the night before. You don't want to overdo it with the soaking.

You want to use oak in the smoker, because that is traditionally what was used to kiln wheat malt used in this type of beer. You also want to soak the oak overnight because wet wood smokes and burns slower, so you get more smoke --and thicker smoke -- for less wood. You should completely submerge the wood in water.

The smoking process is simple. Put your grains on a tray or pie tin about 1/2 an inch thick. Heat up your smoker, toss in the wood, and add the grain. The heat should be kept around 120F so that you don't roast the grain. You will want to stir the grains about every 10-15 min (IMO) to make sure they all get a nice smokey flavor. Once done, leave them out to cool. For me it took about 45 min to an hour to get all the grain smokey before I took them out. I didn't do a good job of soaking the grain, so that may have contributed to the lengthy process.

One thing I found was that when the grain was hot it didn't smell very smokey, but once it cooled it was considerably more smokey. The oak doesn't give you the strong smokey smell of rauchmalt, it's a bit more acidic and roasty, but it will definitely smell smokey once cooled.

The Recipe

Some notes prior to jumping in:

* Saaz or Lublin are the traditional hops used in the recipe, so if you are trying to be "traditional" you'll want to use Lublin, or Saaz if you can't find Lublin

* The traditional mash process is an infusion mash. I've given the temperature and timeframe sequence below, but you'll need to calculate the water volume at each infusion based on your batch size and equipment.

* The ingredients, mash/batch water volume, and hop schedule are for ONE GALLON. If you want to make a larger batch, just scale up by the number of gallons.


Grain bill:

1.75 lb wheat malt, home-smoked

Mash schedule:

2.2 qt at 98F for 45 min
Raise to 122F for 60 min
Raise to 158F for 60 min

Batch sparge with 7.7 qt at 174F

Boil volume: 2.2 gal
Boil time: 90 min

Boil additions:

.30 oz Saaz at 90 min
.20 oz Saaz at 20 min
.05 tsp Irish moss at 10 min

Ferment with 1338 for 7 days at 68.

Prime with corn sugar (ideally this should be carbed to 4 vol, but if you don't have the bottles for it, carb as high as you safely can) and condition for another 3 weeks.

Batch info:

32.6 IBU
4.63 ABV
3.5 SRM
1.051 SG
1.015 FG


This beer is delicious! It has a pale ale-ish appearance with a thicker head. It has a great wheat-smoke flavor combination. The hops are not a prominent taste, but they nicely tie the wheat and smoke flavors together.

Color: The color is typical of wheat beers: a golden brown white a very white head. Because of the high carbonation the head is more reminiscent of Duvel than a hefeweizen. It is reasonably clear, although not quite kristalweizen quality. Next time I'll try using irish moss in the boil and gelatin in the fermenter to further clarify.

Smell: It has a smokey, roasted wheat smell. Very good. There's not much of a hops aroma, due mostly to not using aroma hops...

Taste: The first thing that you taste is roasty wheat, followed quickly by the smoke. Although the beer is reasonably well hopped, the hops take a back seat in the flavor and help tie the wheat and smoke together into a very nicely blended combination of flavor. I guess the best way to describe it would be a nice wheat roll lightly buttered and toasted in a smoker and covered with a vegetable spread. I don't know that that is completely accurate, but that's as close as I can get.

Mouthfeel: Very thin for a wheat beer, but solid for an ale. Goes down smooth with nice carbonation.

I'll get some pictures posted when I pop open the next bottle.
 
I'm setting up to brew this too, its sweet that you've already paved the way. Did you just brew this or has this already been bottled for a bit? I've read that it needs to age for quite some time before it's right. I've also read that this should be a heavily hopped beer, on the order of 4-5 oz for a 5 gallon batch. Any reason you went a little lower on yours? Ill be giving this one a shot this wknd I think. Can't wait to brew this one!
 
I'm setting up to brew this too, its sweet that you've already paved the way. Did you just brew this or has this already been bottled for a bit? I've read that it needs to age for quite some time before it's right. I've also read that this should be a heavily hopped beer, on the order of 4-5 oz for a 5 gallon batch. Any reason you went a little lower on yours? Ill be giving this one a shot this wknd I think. Can't wait to brew this one!

It's been bottled for about a month or so. Like all beers it will mellow and better blend with age...

As far as hops go, yeah I see that Mosher says to use lots of hops. Many other sources suggested that the beer was hoppy at 30-35 IBU. I think historically that was appropriate to style, but in terms of modern beer trends, it's very moderate.

"Hoppy" is after all, relative term. I could see people who really love their hops going higher than what I used and enjoying this beer. I didn't want to go overboard, I think the blend reached it very reasonable and melds into a nice taste. However, like I said it's subject to personal tastes and if you're into more hops you should go that direction.

Let me know how goes. :mug:
 
In Poland homebrewers use mix of Weyermann smoked malt and pale wheat malt when brewing Grodziskie and these beers are very close to original, nobody thinks it's cheating (even the staff from the brewery at Grodzisk says so). Classic homebrewing recipe uses them 2-to-1, but this may vary and often 1-to-1 is used instead. The key is to get light smoke flavour, not as prominent as in German rauchbiers. Originally the malt was not "smoked" in the same sense as German rauchmalz - it was dried using only light smoke. Generally in Poland we think it's not possible to clone this beer, as the original process was inconsistent (and so the quality of final product - in late 80's the beer was nearly not drinkable at all!). This year's winner in Grodzisk competition used mix of pale wheat malt, smoked wheat malt and smoked spelt malt - here's the recipe (in Polish) and some photos.

Originally Lomik hops was used, as Lubelski was in short supply these times. Lomik is similar to Lubelski but does not have such noble aroma.

Usually this beer is brewed to 8*Plato to get even lower ABV (rarely exceeding 3.5%). Original Graetzer yeast strain was preserved and is available, though not easily. Polish homebrewers use Fermentis S-33, Wyeast 1007 German Ale or Wyeast 2565 Koelsch strains, as original Grodziskie yeast are in very low supply.

I made this beer once for curiosity, but it did not fit my taste (i don't like smoke flavours).
 
In Poland homebrewers use mix of Weyermann smoked malt and pale wheat malt when brewing Grodziskie and these beers are very close to original, nobody thinks it's cheating (even the staff from the brewery at Grodzisk says so). Classic homebrewing recipe uses them 2-to-1, but this may vary and often 1-to-1 is used instead. The key is to get light smoke flavour, not as prominent as in German rauchbiers. Originally the malt was not "smoked" in the same sense as German rauchmalz - it was dried using only light smoke. Generally in Poland we think it's not possible to clone this beer, as the original process was inconsistent (and so the quality of final product - in late 80's the beer was nearly not drinkable at all!). This year's winner in Grodzisk competition used mix of pale wheat malt, smoked wheat malt and smoked spelt malt - here's the recipe (in Polish) and some photos.

Originally Lomik hops was used, as Lubelski was in short supply these times. Lomik is similar to Lubelski but does not have such noble aroma.

Usually this beer is brewed to 8*Plato to get even lower ABV (rarely exceeding 3.5%). Original Graetzer yeast strain was preserved and is available, though not easily. Polish homebrewers use Fermentis S-33, Wyeast 1007 German Ale or Wyeast 2565 Koelsch strains, as original Grodziskie yeast are in very low supply.

I made this beer once for curiosity, but it did not fit my taste (i don't like smoke flavours).

Zgoda

Gdzie w stanach znalazłeś graetzer drożdże? Jus kilka razy robiłem grodziskie piwo i nigdy nie wychodziło.

Dzienki

Lukasz
 
I recently smoked 3.25 lb of German Wheat Malt with white oak in the charcoal smoker for 2 hours. All I had around were metal colanders, so I smoked the malt a bit longer to expose it all. It smells great and has a lightly smokey taste with a tart acidic snap when chewed.

Did you shoot for a soft water profile? Did you need to acidify your mash with salts per normal or did the malt have a lower acidity due to the smoking? I am planning on cutting with RO water, then adding salts until I get past 50 ppm Calcium and using lactic acid if needed to tune the RA.
 
Just brewed this today. Tasted the hydrometer sample, wow, holy smoke/bitter batman. I've never tasted a beer like this and this beer will either be hero or zero! Not sure if I overdid the smoke component. I'll report back with notes on the finished beer! Kind of wish I would have done a 5 gallon batch instead of 3.5.
 
Hey just saw this. I used my local water, which is on the alkaline side. I normally do an acid rest to lower the ph but I didn't in this case. I do think softening the water is a good idea since a high sulfite:chloride ratio will accentuate the bitterness too much.

Have you had a chance to taste it?
 
In Poland homebrewers use mix of Weyermann smoked malt and pale wheat malt when brewing Grodziskie and these beers are very close to original, nobody thinks it's cheating (even the staff from the brewery at Grodzisk says so). Classic homebrewing recipe uses them 2-to-1, but this may vary and often 1-to-1 is used instead. The key is to get light smoke flavour, not as prominent as in German rauchbiers. Originally the malt was not "smoked" in the same sense as German rauchmalz - it was dried using only light smoke. Generally in Poland we think it's not possible to clone this beer, as the original process was inconsistent (and so the quality of final product - in late 80's the beer was nearly not drinkable at all!). This year's winner in Grodzisk competition used mix of pale wheat malt, smoked wheat malt and smoked spelt malt - here's the recipe (in Polish) and some photos.

Originally Lomik hops was used, as Lubelski was in short supply these times. Lomik is similar to Lubelski but does not have such noble aroma.

Usually this beer is brewed to 8*Plato to get even lower ABV (rarely exceeding 3.5%). Original Graetzer yeast strain was preserved and is available, though not easily. Polish homebrewers use Fermentis S-33, Wyeast 1007 German Ale or Wyeast 2565 Koelsch strains, as original Grodziskie yeast are in very low supply.

I made this beer once for curiosity, but it did not fit my taste (i don't like smoke flavours).

Really great info! I've been reading up about a lot of different historic German/Northern European styles lately and this is on the top of my list to try. I think I'll probably use your suggestion of mixing smoked malt (since I don't have a smoker). I'm also considering brewing a German porter and Lichtenhainer.
 
For those that brewed a Gratzer, what gravity did you shoot for and which is better. I have seen a small beer at 1.028 and this recipe in the 1.050 range.
I have already smoked the wheat and it smells great.
Thanks
 
What I found said the beer typically finishes in the 3-5% range. I think more often it's done on the lower side of that range, but it's up to whatever you want to drink. I was happy with the beer getting close to 5% but next time I'll probably brew it at a lower gravity around 3%.
 
Made a Grodziskie out of 1/2 Beechwood Smoked Malt and 1/2 wheat malt. 1.034 SG and 36 IBU from Saaz. Kolsh yeast. Bottled conditioned to 3.5 vol CO2. 3.1 ABV

Beer turned out great. Cleared well. Still needs more time to finish carbing. Great balance of smoke and bitter.

Will be brewing one this week with 100% wheat malt that I cold smoked for two hours with oak.
 
Here are my two Grodziskies. The one on the left is 1/2 commercial beechwood smoked malt, 1/2 wheat malt. The one on the right is 100% wheat malt cold smoked with oak.



Both in the 1.030s, both with mid 30s IBUs from Saaz. Kolsch yeast. Both fined with gelatin. So they are in the style of a low gravity Grodziskie.

The half and half was bottle conditioned to 3.5 vol CO2, the full wheat was kegged at about 3 vol. Both beers are fairly clear, but both have a chill haze.

Here is a closeup of the whole wheat:



Here is a closeup of the half and half:

Image 2 by hdshovel2001, on Flickr

The half and half has better head retention than the whole wheat. This may be due in part to it being more effervencent.

There is a big difference in taste. As can be expected the half and half has less smoke nose and flavor, although the whole wheat has a much smoother smokiness. The half and half was initially acrid but this has diminished considerably after aging for a month or so.

The whole wheat beer has an overall better balance. It is smokey, but it works in this beer. The oak makes a difference. It has a citrus overtone that is lacking in the half and half.

This style of beer is a good alternative to heavier styles of smoked beers. Both beers are good and if you like smoked beers, wouldn't disappoint.

Although the whole wheat cold smoked beer is in my opinion a better beer, I wouldn't hesitate to make either one again. I think that there would be a better consistency with the half and half just because there is an inherent variability when home smoking malt that probably would lend batch differences in the whole wheat version.
 
I recently did two Grodziskie comparing home smoked vs the commercial smoked wheat. While the commercial smoked malt was good, it really lacked the degree of smokiness and complexity of the home smoked wheat malt
 
I recently did two Grodziskie comparing home smoked vs the commercial smoked wheat. While the commercial smoked malt was good, it really lacked the degree of smokiness and complexity of the home smoked wheat malt

hard to tell from your posts from May, but was that commercial smoked BARLEY malt? or wheat?

plus the smoke was beechwood, might make a difference.

I would be interested in knowing how a Grodziskie with that NB smoked wheat would turn out

well, plus yours... sure they are all tastyandgood
 
The post from May was a comparison of Grodziskie made with:
1) a mixture of commercial beechwood smoked barley malt and wheat malt
vs
2)100% home oak smoked wheat malt.
In that post, the home oak smoked wheat malt Grodziskie tasted better.

Since then I have compared Grodziskie made with home oak smoked wheat malt vs the Weyermann oak smoked wheat malt.
Both of these beers were 100% wheat malt
1.034 OG
36IBU Saaz
Kolsch yeast

Both beers were good. The Weyermann version was less smokey and less complex than the version made with the home oak smoked wheat malt.
Friends that tasted both side to side tended to like the home smoked version better, but they certainly wouldn't refuse the commercial smoked version if that was the only one on tap.

If you can't or dont want to fool with home smoking wheat malt, the Weyermann oak smoked malt will make a fine Grodziskie.

BTW ignore the Weyermann recommendation to use 20% malted barley in the mash. The smoked wheat converted fine on its own. The efficiency I got was in the high 60s so you may want to adjust your brewing software to make sure that you hit your target gravities.
 
Dragging up an old thread sorry, beer tried a smoked beer and can't find a commercial one down here? Found this ol thread which inspired me but some help please...?
Not really true to style just a basic smoked ale. 5liter test batch (don't know if I even like smoked beer)


250g oak smoked wheat malt, I step mashed as the original post
250g breiss Bavarian wheat lme
500g light dme
10g hersbruker 60min
5g tetnang 10min

About too pitch

Have us-05, wb-06, or coopers ale?

Want it clean so was tending towards the us-05

Suggestions?



She doesn't seem to understand, I really, really, like beer...
 
Dragging up an old thread sorry, beer tried a smoked beer and can't find a commercial one down here? Found this ol thread which inspired me but some help please...?
Not really true to style just a basic smoked ale. 5liter test batch (don't know if I even like smoked beer)


250g oak smoked wheat malt, I step mashed as the original post
250g breiss Bavarian wheat lme
500g light dme
10g hersbruker 60min
5g tetnang 10min

About too pitch

Have us-05, wb-06, or coopers ale?

Want it clean so was tending towards the us-05

Suggestions?



She doesn't seem to understand, I really, really, like beer...

The Grodziskie strain is fairly neutral. Here is the Fermentum Mobile offering of it:

http://www.fermentum-mobile.pl/portfolio-item/fm51-grodzie-debowe/

I'd use the 05
 
I did go with 05 fermenting out quite slowly tested yesterday was sitting .1011 will lev it till Wednesday, drank the sample and though it's faintly smoky you can taste it and very impressed over all, will definately try a full batch.


She doesn't seem to understand, I really, really, like beer...
 
Moved out of recipe database.

edit:

Didn't want to hijack an existing recipe with my take on it.
But happy to provide a bump. :cross:



VVVVVVVVV
 
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