When Is Yeast Starter Needed?

When is a yeast starter needed? Reading here, it seems like it's always recommended, but when I picked up the ingredients for the brew I started this weekend, the guys at the homebrew shop said not to do it for the yeast they gave me (Safale US-05).

Thanks!

It's needed if you don't have enough yeast. (And that's not just a smartass comment.) Use yeastcalc.com or mrmalty.com to determine how much you need and whether or not you need a starter.

Generally, starters are not used with dry yeast for several reasons:

1. Dry yeast has a longer shelf life than liquid.
2. A single packet of dry yeast has roughly twice the cells of a smack pack or white labs tube.
3. Dry yeast is packaged and prepared in such a way that it is actually detrimental to do a starter. Something about cell walls, oxygen, nutrients, and some other stuff that someone else can explain.
4. Dry yeast is cheap. If you don't have enough, pitch two packets.

Rocketman574 said:

the guys at the homebrew shop said not to do it for the yeast they gave me (Safale US-05).

Thanks!

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05 is a dry yeast if you are doing a five gallon batch most of the time one pack is enough

but it is better to rehydrate your yeast then pitching it dry into the wort

which is not the same as making a starter

all the best

S_M

X2 on rehydrate. What is your expected og? Worst case pitch two rehydrated safale us-05 packs. That will hold you up to a pretty high gravity!

1 US05 packet is good for up to about 1.060 OG. You should never make a starter with dry yeast. Contrary to others I don't rehydrate US05, but I will rehydrate pretty much anything else. US05 is about as foolproof as it gets in yeasts so rehydrating it is just another step to muck up. If you are a new brewer don't worry about rehydrating it. Once you get a couple brews under your belt go ahead and experiment with rehydrating and see what works best for you.

Anything liquid you should always make a starter, the size depends on your OG and yeast strain and mfg date and a few other variables. That's where your Mr. Malty calculator comes in handy.


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Agreed with all the above posts. Especially the post about the longevity of dry yeast. It's all about your cell count. And the websites provided above will help you figure out based of the date of manufacturer how many yeast cells should still be good.

Liquid yeast on the other hand usually only lasts 4-6 months after it's made. I recently ordered a kit online and got a liquid yeast that was made in early December. I used it yesterday. So over 3.5 months since it was made. I think the calculator told me I was only going to have about 30% of the cells it would have been if it was a fresh pack.

So I made a yeast starter to get it up to where I needed it.




- ISM NRP

There was a whole thread recently about making a started with dry yeast. That would be a good read.

When it comes to liquid yeast I always make starters or repitch fresh slurry based on the online calculators.

Also agree. With dry yeast I add 1 packet if 1.055 and below, 2 packets for 1.055+. Rehydrate, no starter.

With liquid yeasts, I pich direct if the gravity is low and I want some esters. Say 1.045 and below (good example is a Patersbier). Otherwise I make starters for beers between 1.045 and 1.080 or so. Above that and I will pitch a larger part of a previous yeast cake.

Always.

garcia said:

Always.

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Good effort, but try a little harder next time.

I always make a starter with liquid yeast and I always rehydrate dry yeast. According to Wyeast and White Labs, each smack pack / vial contains roughly 100 billion cells. 5.25 gallons of 1.044 ale should have about 164 billion cells (using the 750,000 cells/ml formula for your pitching rate). With one smack pack / vial, you only have about 60% of what you need for 5.25 gallons of 1.044 ale......and that's if the yeast was 'fresh'. The farther you are from manufacture date, the lower that number is. Always make a starter with liquid yeast....or pitch multiple packs.

I believe that a starter also kicks off the metabolism of liquid yeast, I do one even if I have enough of a count for this reason.


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+1 to most of the above re:dry yeast

OG at 1.055 + = pitch two packets of dry yeast
OG below 1.055 = pitch one packet of dry yeast

I always rehydrate dry yeast. Lacking clear rehydration instructions on the yeast packet I will go to the manufacturer's website to see what they have to say. Often the packet will tell you to pitch it dry while their website gives very detailed instructions for rehydration along with a comment to the effect that, while rehydration may not be absolutely necessary, it will improve the performance of the yeast.

I do a starter when necessary. Over 1065, or over three weeks old is when I start to get concerned. You certainly don't need a flask or a stir-plate. I'm sure this will bring on the opprobrium, but what I wan't beginners to be aware of is the propensity of homebrewers to obsess over professional practices that they don't need to emulate while ignoring professional practices that they DO need to emulate. For example, secondary fermentation. Or how about fitting a sparge arm to a five gallon mash tun?

Adam Selene

Adam_Selene said:

I do a starter when necessary. Over 1065, or over three weeks old is when I start to get concerned. You certainly don't need a flask or a stir-plate. I'm sure this will bring on the opprobrium, but what I wan't beginners to be aware of is the propensity of homebrewers to obsess over professional practices that they don't need to emulate while ignoring professional practices that they DO need to emulate. For example, secondary fermentation. Or how about fitting a sparge arm to a five gallon mash tun?

Adam Selene

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Yeast pitching rate is definitely one thing that you need to obsess over....along with fermentation temp control and sanitation. If you're pitching one vial in to a 1.065 beer without making a starter, you are seriously under-pitching. It's not 'my opinion'....it's science. This is applicable whether you are brewing 1 gallon or 100 barrels. Also, you don't 'need' a stir plate and flask, but you will get much better (and healthier) yeast growth with them. In brewing, yeast is definitely an area in which you do not want to skimp. Brewers make the wort; yeast make the beer. Simple as that.

Two purposes of a test starter:

1) to ensure yeast viability.
2) to arrive at desired cell count.

With fresh dry or liquid yeast direct from a yeast or white labs, 1 is not an issue.

2 might be. Thus, use mr malty or brewers friend pitch rate calc to see if and what size starter to make given your starting yeast.

Happy brewing!


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jeremy0209 said:

Yeast pitching rate is definitely one thing that you need to obsess over....along with fermentation temp control and sanitation. If you're pitching one vial in to a 1.065 beer without making a starter, you are seriously under-pitching. It's not 'my opinion'....it's science.

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Sure. I'm not going to get another thread locked, over this so I won't say much more.

This is applicable whether you are brewing 1 gallon or 100 barrels. Also, you don't 'need' a stir plate and flask, but you will get much better (and healthier) yeast growth with them. In brewing, yeast is definitely an area in which you do not want to skimp. Brewers make the wort; yeast make the beer. Simple as that.

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No, it's not. I do a starter when nessesary, it's no more complicated then that. Acording to you I've been underpitching for years. Haven't noticed any problams.

Adam Selene

Personally, I always do a starter - but I almost never use dry yeast.
As others said, using a pack of dry is enough for up to about 1.060 wort, though I prefer giving it a bit more margin of error - under 1.050 or so I'll think about direct pitching if I use the dry.
It's a good habit to get into - just takes a bit of planning and a few days ahead of time.

Adam_Selene said:

Acording to you I've been underpitching for years. Haven't noticed any problams.

Adam Selene

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(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)....if you're pitching less than this amount for ales (and double for lagers), you're underpitching. It's all right here: http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Also, I have no doubt that you haven't noticed any problems, but perhaps you can't recognize off flavors, either. Like I said before, this isn't my 'opinion', it's factual science. Book upon book and website upon website confirm it. There's really nothing to argue, here.

jeremy0209 said:

With one smack pack / vial, you only have about 60% of what you need for 5.25 gallons of 1.044 ale......and that's if the yeast was 'fresh'.

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Please understand if I sound a little oppositional here, but I am really interested in learning about this. So I'll play Devil's Advocate if you don't mind:

If one vial or smack pack doesn't provide the correct number of cells straight from the manufacturer, then why do the manufacturers sell them in the size packs they do? And those packs, direct from professionals who work with yeast for a living, tell us they contain the correct amount of yeast for one 5 gal. batch of normal gravity beer. Are they lying to us? False advertising?

Puddlethumper said:

Please understand if I sound a little oppositional here, but I am really interested in learning about this. So I'll play Devil's Advocate if you don't mind:

If one vial or smack pack doesn't provide the correct number of cells straight from the manufacturer, then why do the manufacturers sell them in the size packs they do? And those packs, direct from professionals who work with yeast for a living, tell us they contain the correct amount of yeast for one 5 gal. batch of normal gravity beer. Are they lying to us? False advertising?

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I have puzzled over this also. I can only come up with the idea that they might sell more yeast the way they package. I also wonder why they say it is the right amount for 5 gallons, but if you search you will find their techs stating it is best to make a starter.

For me:

Dry yeast gets rehydrated and pitched at the proper rate (no starter)

Liquid yeast always gets a starter. I always make starters rather than paying $$ for multiple packs.

You can ferment with low cell counts and get good beer.
I strive to make the best I can so I attempt to pitch proper cell counts for the given gravity.

+1 kh, starters do help, but I challenge their absolute necessity. Although they are recommended I can't help but think they are one variable in a complex equation - one that is easy to control, mind you. Ingredients, temperature profile throughout the mash and fermentation, water chemistry, age of the beer, oxygen control, etc, etc. I think they definitely help, but I also think you can make a good beer without them. Maybe not a great beer, but that last mile takes a lot of effort.


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kh54s10 said:

I have puzzled over this also. I can only come up with the idea that they might sell more yeast the way they package. I also wonder why they say it is the right amount for 5 gallons, but if you search you will find their techs stating it is best to make a starter.

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I decided to go the White Labs' website to see what they had to say about using starters. I found it very instructive:

"White Labs Pitchable Yeast is packaged with 70 to 140 billion yeast cells, which corresponds approximately to a 1-2 liter size starter. Lag times are typically between 12-24 hours for a normal strength brew.

A yeast starter is used to initiate cell activity or increase the cell count before using it to make your beer. The yeast will grow in this smaller volume, usually for 1-2 days, which then can be added to 5 gallons of wort.

While a starter is not always necessary, White Labs recommends making a starter if the Original Gravity is over 1.060, if the yeast is past its "Best Before" date, if you are pitching lager yeast at temperatures below 65F, or if a faster start is desired."

Here's the link to their site: http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew/starter-tips

So it seems that with liquid yeasts we have about the same thing we have with dry; the manufacturers are shipping packets that "will" work and make decent beer, but for best results we need to take some extra steps, i.e. make a starter, rehydrate, etc.

Cheers!

bobby4 said:

+1 kh, starters do help, but I challenge their absolute necessity. Although they are recommended I can't help but think they are one variable in a complex equation - one that is easy to control, mind you. Ingredients, temperature profile throughout the mash and fermentation, water chemistry, age of the beer, oxygen control, etc, etc. I think they definitely help, but I also think you can make a good beer without them. Maybe not a great beer, but that last mile takes a lot of effort.


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I totally agree that starters are not necessary. Beer will be created, with or without. And I agree that the last mile takes the most effort.

But starters are really easy to make and don't take that much preparation. I doubt you can make an argument against them that I can truly accept.

Your last two sentences: "I think they definitely help, but I also think you can make a good beer without them. Maybe not a great beer, but that last mile takes a lot of effort."

If that is your opinion, why would you ever make a beer without a starter? (Excluding the use of dry yeast and assuming you have enough of it.)

Puddlethumper said:

If one vial or smack pack doesn't provide the correct number of cells straight from the manufacturer, then why do the manufacturers sell them in the size packs they do?

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The answer is -- it depends. Wyeast also has great information.

When is one pack enough:
https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=16

What is "well aerated":
https://www.wyeastlab.com/search.cfm?searchterm=aeration&search-submit=GO

And finally, their info on making starters:
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm

Friesste - I always use them because they are so easy to do, but I wouldn't want to discourage someone who is new to brewing and not quite ready for another step. I just don't like it when people list 'the last mile' elements as mandatory, and I am sure you would agree. A bit like the dry yeast argument, I would never go back - but on the other hand dried yeast and extract kept me happy throughout the 90s when I lived in a tiny apartment. Now I have the time, space and equipment to pooh pooh everything I used to do


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jeremy0209 said:

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)....if you're pitching less than this amount for ales (and double for lagers), you're underpitching. It's all right here: http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Also, I have no doubt that you haven't noticed any problems, but perhaps you can't recognize off flavors, either.

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I have speculated also, that the obssetion with yeast starters might have something to do with poor sanitation habbits that people generaly have, but aren't aware of. The beer suddenly tastes better. No kidding.

Like I said before, this isn't my 'opinion', it's factual science. Book upon book and website upon website confirm it. There's really nothing to argue, here.

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I agree, "studies say", or "BOOKS!" isn't an argument.

Adam Selene

When general experience and scientific analysis agree, the burden of proof is on the party standing against the general experience and scientific analysis. Significantly underpitching your beer has been proven to allow for greater ester production. Do you disagree? Are you implying that ester off-flavors are the result of infection due to a brewer being unaware of their own poor sanitation? Surely you are not, but your argument seems to allude to that if we agree that esters increase as pitch rate decreases AND we assume poor sanitation is the reason for off-flavors that are the result of underpitching.

I was hit or miss with starters for a long time. I'd make them if I had the foresight to do it, but I never calculated out a desired pitch rate.

Then I made a bock and didn't use a starter. It was a diacetyl bomb. It cleaned some of itself up when I added cherry purée and fermentation started back up.

After the diacetyl bomb, I've made starters every time. If nothing else, it's insurance against off flavors.

I agree with the majority opinion here, but not so much from bad experiences of my own. I have mostly used dry yeast since I started brewing and only lately started exploring use of liquid yeasts correctly. The reason I've decided that the majority opinion here is correct is because I am inclined to try to follow a product manufacturer's instructions as my default procedure. Modify the procedure only when experience teaches me that it is necessary.

The manufacturer's websites instruct us that use of liquid yeast without a starter will work, but with a starter it will work better. I don't presume to be smarter than the lab-coats who wrote those instructions so I'm going to go along with what they say.

Adam_Selene said:

I have speculated also, that the obssetion with yeast starters might have something to do with poor sanitation habbits that people generaly have, but aren't aware of. The beer suddenly tastes better. No kidding.



I agree, "studies say", or "BOOKS!" isn't an argument.

Adam Selene

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Neither is your speculation. Keep fighting the good fight bro. If you keep arguing this, someone will agree with you eventually.