Critique my brewing method please!

this is the second beer i've done this way. I'm not particularly happy with how the first one came out though, it lacks body. The second one, which I brewed last week and put into the secondary on friday seems to have a low gravity. FG was supposed to be 1.015, and Im at 1.011 right now (when racked to Secondary); I'm concerned that there's something going wrong.
*I appeal to all the awesome brewers in this place to please enlighten me a bit

I've cobbled together this method from several instructions, but could really use some feedback. I'm doing partial extract as it's what I have the equipment for. So without further ado:
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1. Wash and Sanitize the **** out of everything.
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2. Bring 2gals water to 150 in a stainless kettle and let the bag of grains and water salts steep in for 30 mins.
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3. in a separate kettle, bring 3 gals to boil.
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4. Remove bag of grains from kettle, put on a huge stainless strainer and let it drain for 5 mins.
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5. Run the 3 gallons through the bag, gently pressing down on the bag with wooden spoon until no more water is left.
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6. Add malt extract and bring back to boil.
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7. Once boiling is achieved boil for 5 mins. Stir
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8. Add bittering hops. Boil for 45 mins. Stir
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9. Add Flavoring hops and continue boil for 10 mins. Stir
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10. Add finishing hops and take off heat. Stir
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11. Put in wort chiller and cooling wand (prechiller in ice) and bring down to 75 degrees. Wort chiller is tap water -> copper prechiller in ice bath -> Large copper coil.* Stir
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12. Pour into fermenter. Use a plastic Funnel/Strainer to Aerate
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13. Add White labs yeast
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14. Add water to bring volume back up to 5 gals
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15. Let sit in primary for a week with airlock.
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16. After a week or so transfer to secondary. Add 1/2oz of crushed finishing hops.
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Let sit in secondary for ~2 weeks. (this is where I am now)
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I had to improvise an airlock as I broke my other one. I attached tubing to the carboy cap and put the other end into a container with sanitized water.
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So any criticism? Glaring ommisions? How would you guys do things differently?
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Thanks!

Other than your unavoidable "Secondary fermenter is useless" debate, I would recommend checking the volume measurments on the fermenters. Sometimes they are WAAAAAY off haha

^ second this. In addition, if you have two brew kettles, then you may want to read up on Death brewers BIAB partial extract sticky. In that one, he has suggested doing exactly like you OR simply "teabag" your grains in the second batch of water at 170 degrees. From his thread and others (including me), letting the bag full of grains soak in the 170 degree to sparge the extract from the grains seems to get a better efficiency. Last time I did it, I got 75% efficiency.

Try steeping with less water. I do ~1gal/#. I've noticed better body in my beers since I started doing it that way.

Germelli1 said:

Other than your unavoidable "Secondary fermenter is useless" debate, I would recommend checking the volume measurments on the fermenters. Sometimes they are WAAAAAY off haha

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Thanks! I have to be a little more careful with my volumes!

I was wondering whether the fact that I've been straining and passing it onto the secondary is keeping it from developing more body, as it "cleans" it from the sediments

boomtown25 said:

^ second this. In addition, if you have two brew kettles, then you may want to read up on Death brewers BIAB partial extract sticky. In that one, he has suggested doing exactly like you OR simply "teabag" your grains in the second batch of water at 170 degrees. From his thread and others (including me), letting the bag full of grains soak in the 170 degree to sparge the extract from the grains seems to get a better efficiency. Last time I did it, I got 75% efficiency.

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Sweetness, will definitely try it like that next time. Seems like it would absorb more flavour this way?

NordeastBrewer77 said:

Try steeping with less water. I do ~1gal/#. I've noticed better body in my beers since I started doing it that way.

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Im guessing it becomes more concentrated this way? it makes sense.

El_Matador said:

Thanks! I have to be a little more careful with my volumes!

I was wondering whether the fact that I've been straining and passing it onto the secondary is keeping it from developing more body, as it "cleans" it from the sediments

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I imagine you are already very careful with your measurments since youe brewing method is great!

What I am saying is that you can as careful as possible when adding top off water, but it doesn't help when your 5 gallon mark you carefully topped up to is actually 5.5 gallons!

Two things come to mind when I read this post. 2 gal @ 150 for 30 mins? Remember the temp of the grains will bring down your water temp when added to the water. Also, 30 min steep should be more like 60 mins or even 90 mins. I do two 5 gal pots with 3.25 gal each, split the grain bill in half, steep @ 152 for 60/90 min, bring it up to 170 for 10 min, remove gains, and continue the boiling process. This equals 5 gals. I hit my numbers everytime. Hope that helps.

shadows69 said:

Two things come to mind when I read this post. 2 gal @ 150 for 30 mins? Remember the temp of the grains will bring down your water temp when added to the water. Also, 30 min steep should be more like 60 mins or even 90 mins. I do two 5 gal pots with 3.25 gal each, split the grain bill in half, steep @ 152 for 60/90 min, bring it up to 170 for 10 min, remove gains, and continue the boiling process. This equals 5 gals. I hit my numbers everytime. Hope that helps.

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I could be wrong here but it sounds based on his method he's doing extract w/ steeping grains not partial mash. If he's using like crystal 40 or special b or something his method is dead on 150 for 20-30 minutes. I do it a bit different though I have good results putting grain in cold, heating h20 to 160 and pulling bag . Also don't press grain you'll extract tannins. other besides that great method. your problems could be from your water quality get a water analysis and have them check ph as well as chlorine or cloramiine lvls. or could be just really hungry Sh** alot yeast that are dropping your gravity low also check your yeast optimum temp range as this could effect your gravity also.

I am a chronic grain bag squeezer when I brew extract batches and never "extracted tannis". You squeeze the bag a sh1tload anyway by lifing the grain bag up so I don't see how it hurts.

Aschecte said:

I could be wrong here but it sounds based on his method he's doing extract w/ steeping grains not partial mash. If he's using like crystal 40 or special b or something his method is dead on 150 for 20-30 minutes. I do it a bit different though I have good results putting grain in cold, heating h20 to 160 and pulling bag . Also don't press grain you'll extract tannins. other besides that great method. your problems could be from your water quality get a water analysis and have them check ph as well as chlorine or cloramiine lvls. or could be just really hungry Sh** alot yeast that are dropping your gravity low also check your yeast optimum temp range as this could effect your gravity also.

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You are correct, Sir! Though I've really been wanting to try partial mash.

Good to know about the tannins, would those add a bitter taste to the beer? If so then they might be to blame for some of what I dont like about my first batch.

The water is really good, I'm brewing in a Commercial Kitchen and have access to a ridiculously awesome filter.

I'm not sure if the way you describe with just putting it in cold and letting it get up to 160 would work for me. The burner i'm using is industrial and the water gets up to temp QUICK.

I'm fermenting at 63 degrees, is this too low?

Interesting about the hungry yeast, I'll have to be really carefull with the temp next time and make sure.

unionrdr said:

Do you need to add the salts to adjust your water's ph or something? Don't press on the grain bag,just sparge. you can get tannins that way. I add part of the extract (DME) to the boil for hop additions. Good utilization that way. Bring the wort up to volume in the FV 1st. Stir,shake,etc to get the top off water/wort to mix well. Take hydrometer test 1st,then pitch yeast/starter.
Fermentation can take more than 1 week. Again,use your hydrometer to know when FG is reached. I don't secondary to dry hop,not needed. And no need to crush hops,but I bag them. Dry hopping is best in 7-10 days to avoid the grassy flavors.

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Pardon my ignorance, but FV?

63 is perfect for fermenting ales. It also doesn't matter if the yeast are "hungrier" than others, there is still only so much fermentable sugar in the wort. Have you ever had a wine that kind of puckered your mouth a bit? That is what tannins are like...in Wine they are desireable to different levels but in beer, you never want them.

Have you ever bit in to a crab apple or some kind of other unripe fruit... that is an extreme example of what tannins do

That said, you almost have to try and extract tannis from grains hulls. I squueze the **** out of grain bags and have never had tannins, even on light bodied beers like a session mild or kolsch!

Germelli1 said:

63 is perfect for fermenting ales. It also doesn't matter if the yeast are "hungrier" than others, there is still only so much fermentable sugar in the wort. Have you ever had a wine that kind of puckered your mouth a bit? That is what tannins are like...in Wine they are desireable to different levels but in beer, you never want them.

Have you ever bit in to a crab apple or some kind of other unripe fruit that is an extreme example of what tannins do

That said, you almost have to try and extract tannis from grains hulls. I squueze the **** out of grain bags and have never had tannins, even on light bodied beers like a session mild or kolsch!

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lol I was kidding about hungry pooping yeast but seriously the yeast may be attenuating higher than expected so if the recipe is calling for a fg of 1.016 with 75% AT maybe the yeast is doing really great and atten to 78-80% resulting in lower gravities ie. what the o pis expierencing. other besides that +1 on your descipt of tannins also good example would be if you made black tea and left the bag in for an hour and that taste would be taaaaannnnninnnnssss : )

Aschecte said:

lol I was kidding about hungry pooping yeast but seriously the yeast may be attenuating higher than expected so if the recipe is calling for a fg of 1.016 with 75% AT maybe the yeast is doing really great and atten to 78-80% resulting in lower gravities ie. what the o pis expierencing. other besides that +1 on your descipt of tannins also good example would be if you made black tea and left the bag in for an hour and that taste would be taaaaannnnninnnnssss : )

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Haha I figured you were joking! Sorry if I came off harsh, I am more confused on how he is getting such good attenuation with extract! My puzzlement at that subject made me not know how to phrase it! There just shouldn't be that many fermentables in the extract.

El_Matador said:

Pardon my ignorance, but FV?

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Fermentation vessel is my guess!

El_Matador said:

Pardon my ignorance, but FV?

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FV=Fermentation Vessel. I was referring to pouring the wort in the fermenter,top off with water of your choice to proper level. Then stir,shake,whatever to mix it up well. Then take hydrometer sample,& pitch.

Germelli1 said:

Haha I figured you were joking! Sorry if I came off harsh, I am more confused on how he is getting such good attenuation with extract! My puzzlement at that subject made me not know how to phrase it! There just shouldn't be that many fermentables in the extract.



Fermentation vessel is my guess!

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no offense taken you were correct !!!! I worded "hungry yeast" instead of saying what I meant with attenuation. He is getting great AAT I would love to know what strain is being used. the best i've ever had was with wlp500 trappist ale I hit 80%.

Like you I am hoping to get 80% with 3711 but I am also mashing under 150 degrees!

I have no idea what attenuation means in this application. I'm a physics geek but I'm guessing it's the gradual reduction of intensity (gravity in this case)

I used White Labs California V.

This is the exact recipe I used:

http://www.defalcos.com/component/content/article/133.html

unionrdr said:

FV=Fermentation Vessel. I was referring to pouring the wort in the fermenter,top off with water of your choice to proper level. Then stir,shake,whatever to mix it up well. Then take hydrometer sample,& pitch.

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Well that makes so much sense it flew right over me, Thanks!

Germelli1 said:

63 is perfect for fermenting ales. It also doesn't matter if the yeast are "hungrier" than others, there is still only so much fermentable sugar in the wort. Have you ever had a wine that kind of puckered your mouth a bit? That is what tannins are like...in Wine they are desireable to different levels but in beer, you never want them.

Have you ever bit in to a crab apple or some kind of other unripe fruit... that is an extreme example of what tannins do

That said, you almost have to try and extract tannis from grains hulls. I squueze the **** out of grain bags and have never had tannins, even on light bodied beers like a session mild or kolsch!

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I know exactly what you mean, tannins....suck:cross:

Attenuation is just the amount of extract converted by yeast during fermentation. I really have no idea why yours is so high unless your volume calculations are off somehow (more likely) some of the emzymes from the pale malt got in there and converted some remaining starched in the extract (not likely) haha

OP-
Aschete is right. Steeping grains is different than partial mash. In the steep process, I always throw the steeping grain bag into the pot while warming it up with 2 1/2 gallons. I make sure I either bring it up to 150 with the grains in, OR I bring it to 150 and let sit 30 minutes. Then I remove, bring to boil, add any extract (with flame off) and stir real well, bring back to boil, and once boiling I add my first hop addition and then set my timer for 60 minutes (adding any other hops at their correct times). Only when I am completely done with the boil and have cooled the wort, do I top off to 5 gallons in fermentor with spring water. Partial mash is when you are trying to convert the starches in the grains into protiens and you need to raise the water to around 170 cause when you add the grains usually about 5-7 lbs, it will bring the temp back down to 153 and you let this sit for an hour and then "teabag sparge" in second vessel, then add both vessels of liquid together. WORD OR WARNING- you may find that your stove cannot boil 4 gallons+ of wort, so you may try a "test run" with water only before ending up with 4-5 gallons of wort that you cannot boil.

Germelli1 said:

Attenuation is just the amount of extract converted by yeast during fermentation. I really have no idea why yours is so high unless your volume calculations are off somehow (more likely) some of the emzymes from the pale malt got in there and converted some remaining starched in the extract (not likely) haha

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lol, that is probably it.

I know that gravity is correct because I measured it a billion times since it didnt seem right.

I did have to add about a half gallon of water to the primary to raise the level up to 5 gals. I also didn't shake it that much .

El_Matador said:

lol, that is probably it.

I know that gravity is correct because I measured it a billion times since it didnt seem right.

I did have to add about a half gallon of water to the primary to raise the level up to 5 gals. I also didn't shake it that much .

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Sorry if I overlooked this in the thread, but are you hitting the target OGs? The method I used to top up when I brew extract is:

1. Pour Wort in fermentor
2. Take SG reading
3. Rough calculate require volume of water to add to bring to proper SG
4. Add water, mix like crazy, take new reading
5. Repeat 3 & 4 until at proper gravity

Takes a bit more work, but also creates beer at the perscribed gravity which is much more important in my book!

Target OG was spot on, but it most likely was a squirrel shot as I added water just to bring up volume.

I'll definitely do it with your method from now on

Germelli1 said:

Sorry if I overlooked this in the thread, but are you hitting the target OGs? The method I used to top up when I brew extract is:

1. Pour Wort in fermentor
2. Take SG reading
3. Rough calculate require volume of water to add to bring to proper SG
4. Add water, mix like crazy, take new reading
5. Repeat 3 & 4 until at proper gravity

Takes a bit more work, but also creates beer at the perscribed gravity which is much more important in my book!

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+1 hit your gravity right on if you can !!!!

El_Matador said:

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1. Wash and Sanitize the **** out of everything.
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Not necessary. Only sanitize the stuff that touches the wort after the boil is over.

2. Bring 2gals water to 150 in a stainless kettle and let the bag of grains and water salts steep in for 30 mins.
Skip the salts unless you know WHY you need them. But yes steep the bag of grains for 20-30 minutes. Make sure the grains are loose in the bag, and dunk it around a bit, like a teabag.


3. in a separate kettle, bring 3 gals to boil.

Why? I don't get this. No need to boil 3 gallons of water!

4. Remove bag of grains from kettle, put on a huge stainless strainer and let it drain for 5 mins.

Ok, that make sense, but it's not necessary. You can just lift out the grain bag and give it a squeeze or press it with a spoon.
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5. Run the 3 gallons through the bag, gently pressing down on the bag with wooden spoon until no more water is left.

What a waste of time and hot water! No need. You can do it if you don't have anything better to do, but make sure the water is cooled quite a bit first. No higher than 168 degrees!
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6. Add malt extract and bring back to boil.
Yes, but add 1/2 of the malt extract and add the other 1/2 near the end of the boil for better beer and less darkening.

*7. Once boiling is achieved boil for 5 mins. Stir
You can add the hops right away, and set the timer for 60 minutes at that point.
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8. Add bittering hops. Boil for 45 mins. Stir
See number 7.
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9. Add Flavoring hops and continue boil for 10 mins. Stir
The easiest way to do it is to set the timer for "60 minutes" when you add your first hops and then just glance at it. When there is 15 minutes left (or 10, or 5 or whatever) add the hops at that time.
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10. Add finishing hops and take off heat. Stir
See number 9.
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11. Put in wort chiller and cooling wand (prechiller in ice) and bring down to 75 degrees. Wort chiller is tap water -> copper prechiller in ice bath -> Large copper coil.* Stir
Yes cool the wort as quickly as you can.

12. Pour into fermenter. Use a plastic Funnel/Strainer to Aerate
Yes. Sanitize the funnel/strainer of course.

13. Add White labs yeast
Do this last, after topping up to 5 gallons
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14. Add water to bring volume back up to 5 gals
Yes. And stir/shake/agitate with all your worth. Then take a sanitized wine theif or turkey baster and pull out a sample for the hydrometer jar to take the OG
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15. Let sit in primary for a week with airlock.
Two weeks is better.
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16. After a week or so transfer to secondary. Add 1/2oz of crushed finishing hops.

I'd skip that transfer (too much risk of infection and oxidation and not necessary) and add the dry hops to the current fermenter after two weeks, not one.

17.[Let sit in secondary for ~2 weeks. (this is where I am now)
Leave the beer on the dry hops for 5-10 days, no more. Dryhop about a week before packaging.
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So any criticism? Glaring ommisions? How would you guys do things differently?
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Thanks!

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I'll give it a shot! Answers in bold!

Yooper said:

I'll give it a shot! Answers in bold!

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Wow thanks a lot! Between all the answers I have a feeling that my next brew will be awesome.

Picking up Stout ingredients today or tomorrow

El_Matador said:

Wow thanks a lot! Between all the answers I have a feeling that my next brew will be awesome.

Picking up Stout ingredients today or tomorrow

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Good luck !!!! let us know how the next one turns out.

I have a question after reading this thread. If I buy a kit with the grains in them the instructions say steep for 20 minutes, could I steep for 1 hr and have better body beer?
Or is 20-30 minutes long enough?

DieterVonBrauhaus said:

I have a question after reading this thread. If I buy a kit with the grains in them the instructions say steep for 20 minutes, could I steep for 1 hr and have better body beer?
Or is 20-30 minutes long enough?

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You would get more out of the grains is you psuedo sparged them. Either pour water over the grain bag when the steep is over or dunk them in another pot of warm water and add that back to the pot!

To get more body, add a half pound of CaraPils malt to your recipes. I include a half pound to one pound in every one of my batches, with the execption being recipes I want to ferment out dry!