Consistently low efficiency - Critique my process

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kharper6

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Alright so I miss my OG by about 5 points for every single beer I've ever made since starting all-grain.

I think my problem is I should just take this as a GOOD thing in that I am consistent and just adjust my recipes up, but it's bugging me so here is my process.

I typically mash at recommended temps, today for my IPA I did 153 degrees.

60 minute mash. Drained excruciatingly slowly, just draining took about 30-45 minutes. My mash to grain ratio was about 1.3. After that was done, I put my sparge water in at about 168 degrees. Let it sit for about 12 minutes (lost track of time for a few minutes), did my vorlauf, then repeated, just as slow.

There are no dough balls, everything goes in fine and comes out fine, but I am always low!

Any recommendations? Or should I accept that my equipment is not professional quality and just adjust up a bit?

My water is good, I use either reverse osmosis and adjust the minerals for my beer or if I'm not working (I get my RO water from work) I just use whatever spring water is at the grocery store. My temps hold fine, I really have no idea what else to do!

I will say that I don't think i'm losing very much volume in the mash. My calculators say to account for mash/equip loss, I don't experience this as I am a mash-tipper. Maybe I'm just using too much water?
 
It sounds like you're batch sparging, so draining the mash doesn't need to be done slow. You can open the valve all the way up and let it rip.

The single biggest factor affecting efficiency is the grain crush. If you're not getting a good crush it doesn't matter what else you do, your efficiency will suffer.
 
Do you crush your own grain?

What kind of equipment do you use? False bottom or bazooka screen?
Are you temp correcting and did you test your hydrometer to make sure it's accurate? And have you made sure your thermometer is accurate?
 
Definitely need to check your hydrometer. I had two (dropped one) and they both read differently.
 
What makes you think your efficiency is low? I know your gravities are 5 points lower than you expect, but what are you basing that expectation on? If you can put a number on it your efficiency might turn out to be better than you think.
 
Make sure your volume measurements are accurate as well. I always volume out a new carboy or bucket even if it has measurement marks on it with another known accurate volume container. Even a tenth of a gallon off measurement of batch volume can effect efficient points.
 
The 3 main suspects to start looking at are:

1) Confirming the mash temp. Check your thermometer. I've had one (a floater) that was off by 7*F.

2) Crush.

3) Stirring. Don't be shy about it when you dough-in. If you are batch sparging, stir again for a few minutes after adding the sparge water.
 
I use beer smith and I had to tweak the equipment settings and the volume settings to get it pretty close. I basically had to override the "boil calc volume" settings. The first few batches I overshot volume and undershot gravity. I had to tweak the dead volume in the hoses and under the false bottom to get it closer.

Do you use hydrometer or refractometer? if refract- calibrate it to your hydrometer (temp corrected). I use beer smith to adjust the specific grav readings based on the temp (often in the 180 degree range when I measure) then I calibrate the refract based on the hydro reading.

Temp gauges can be calibrated as well. mash too high temp will result in lower OG.

Otheriwse adjust your efficiency in your software to match your output. beersmith with do this when you enter your measured readings.

THE GOOD NEWS- It will still taste like beer!

Hope this helps...
 
Several good solutions have been presented. Here is something to consider.

I have similar complaints with my own process. I know my problem is volume and not properly scaling a recipe.

If I want 5 gallons in my keg, I need 5.5 in the carboy. So I scale my recipe to 5.5 gallons. But last time I brewed, I missed my target OG. After really thinking about my own issues, I decided to measure the wort left in the kettle that I didn't use. I had a gallon left. Had it not been for the extra wort, I would have hit my OG.

My problem is brewhouse efficiency, not mash efficiency.

My brewhouse efficiency was 63% due to the extra unused gallon of wort. But my mash efficiency was 75% (batch sparging).

Are you measuring brewhouse or mash efficiency?

What efficiency are you getting that you aren't satisfied with? I'd be very happy with a consistent brewhouse efficiency of 70%.

Hopefully this helps you or someone else.
 
kharper6 said:
Alright so I miss my OG by about 5 points for every single beer I've ever made since starting all-grain.

I think my problem is I should just take this as a GOOD thing in that I am consistent and just adjust my recipes up, but it's bugging me so here is my process.

I typically mash at recommended temps, today for my IPA I did 153 degrees.

60 minute mash. Drained excruciatingly slowly, just draining took about 30-45 minutes. My mash to grain ratio was about 1.3. After that was done, I put my sparge water in at about 168 degrees. Let it sit for about 12 minutes (lost track of time for a few minutes), did my vorlauf, then repeated, just as slow.

There are no dough balls, everything goes in fine and comes out fine, but I am always low!

Any recommendations? Or should I accept that my equipment is not professional quality and just adjust up a bit?

My water is good, I use either reverse osmosis and adjust the minerals for my beer or if I'm not working (I get my RO water from work) I just use whatever spring water is at the grocery store. My temps hold fine, I really have no idea what else to do!

I will say that I don't think i'm losing very much volume in the mash. My calculators say to account for mash/equip loss, I don't experience this as I am a mash-tipper. Maybe I'm just using too much water?
Click to expand...

Go to www.braukaiser.com and read his article on troubleshooting efficiency. You two main areas are 1) Conversion efficiency, i.e. how well are you converting in the mash tun, and 2) The sparge/lautering efficiency, i.e. how much sugar are you leaving in the mash tun after lautering.

He has easy to understand tables and formulas to accurately calculate how well you are doing in each of these areas allowing you to pinpoint the fix rather than chance your tail.
 
I stir/beat that mash like it owes me money.

My friend crushes it for me, he owns a shop and is well deserving of the title "master brewer", he uses the same grain crusher so I trust it entirely.

I have checked my hydrometer and it is accurate.

I have checked my thermometer and it is accurate.

The first brew I measured my efficiency (mash, not brewhouse) at 68%. I have gone up a bit from there, but I think I might be using that incorrectly to address my issue (missing gravity points).

I find myself tossing in DME/dextrose to the ends of my boils to reach proper gravity.

I think I am adding too much water honestly. I know I made that mistake today, for some reason the calculators I am using are putting in like .5-.75 gallon of equipment/trub/mash loss, which I use in my measurements and always come out with too much. Today I had to boil for an extra 30 minutes before I added any hops just to get my volume down. I guess I should stop doing that and do the measurements on my own.

I use BeerSmith 2. But I am not very good with the program to be honest, most issue i deal with is setting everything up for my equipment and not what is standard in there. A lot of obscure names for things in that program.
 
Beersmith has some really good tutorials on using the software, including setting up your equipment profile. http://beersmith.com/video/

Also, you still haven't said how you're calculating efficiency. If you're relying on BeerSmith to do it for you, and you haven't set your equipment profile up, that could explain it. Also you have said how you're measuring volume of the pre-boil wort.
 
Already stated but repeating because it's important. Don't drain the first runnings slowly. You're wasting time. Do you stir your sparge water in really well? Also, don't drain the sparge slowly either. Both drain times should be less than 10 minutes and that's including the last 5 minutes of trickling.
 
Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't do or buy into the 'let it rip' sparge method but here's why. Open your valve and drain as fast as you can. When flow stops, close the valve and wait a few minutes. Open the valve again. I bet you get more wort out. (at least on my system, with my false bottom, my pump, that's my experience) You may be thinking that this doesn't matter as long as you hit your volumes but when you leave initial wort in the mash tun pre sparge, this is your most concentrated sugars that you are just diluting out during your subsequent sparges. I'd say the rule of thumb is to drain as fast as you can and still get a full drain. (begin the flame barrage)

On another note, somebody also hit on a critical issue of volumes. If you can't accurately measure your volumes in your kettle and fermenter, you can't really talk about efficiency. You may be 5 points low but maybe you didn't evaporate as much as you think you did and ended up with more of a dilute wort.
 
Well, you're touching on a phenomena that happens with false bottoms and more importantly dip tubes that require maintaining a siphon. First, you might say drain it fast in the beginning and then slow it down towards the end to let the last of the wort to filter down without sucking air into the diptube. However, I'd rather back up and say that I'm not a huge fan of false bottoms and diptubes for batch sparging for this very reason. It's a pain in the ass.

Also keep in mind that suggestions not to drain slowly are in full context of the OP stating 30-40 minutes... that's insanely slow for a batch sparge in any situation.
 
So what system do you use that's better than a false bottom and requires no siphon, manifold with a bottom exit? Assuming we're talking about keggles here, I've found a false bottom with a dip tube can drain to within a 1/4" of the bottom leaving very little dead volume. When I had a manifold, I'd leave more of the good stuff in the MLT to then be diluted out with the next batch sparge. Maybe not as much of an issue with a fly sparge.

I agree that 40 for a batch sparge drain is way too long. My point was that while I can drain my MLT in less than a minute, I get better results in about 3.
 
I don't use it, but a bottom draining keg mash tun would be one example or any cooler with a good manifold or mesh. Not to be nit picky but the OP said he drains for 30-45 minutes on a batch sparge. A couple people said don't make it slow, let er rip and I was more specific about "less than 10 minutes" but I don't think anyone is pushing hard for getting the tun empty in less than a minute or two. I guess its sufficient to say that unless you have a very specific reason to force the runoff slower, just let it drain.
 

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