Bulk Aging W/O Carboy

I have the bulk of my ingredients for an old ale. As this needs a little bit of bulk aging, and I don't have a proper sized Better Bottle I figured I could use brown sugar like a priming solution and rack on top to create a small fermentation to give me a new blanket of CO2 for protection from oxidation. But I'm uncertain as to how much brown sugar/CO2 I'd really need.

Using a calculator I see that ~ 1/2 lb will give me about 4 vol of CO2. Is that enough to create a large enough blanket in a bucket?

I'm also uncertain as to how long I'd need/want to bulk age, as well as bottle condition this before I can put some in the fridge. This is what I have:

5.5 gal batch 4.5 gal boil partial mash/partial boil:

7 lbs golden light LME (FO)
2.25 lbs 2-row
1 lb crystal 40
1 lb crystal 60
1 lb brown sugar
0.75 lb soft white wheat berries
0.75 lb Special B
6 oz carapils

1 oz Warrior @ 77 mins
2 oz Liberty @ 21 mins

US-05/S-04 mix

1.082/1.016
8.6% ABV
19 SRM
51 IBU's

So far my shot in the dark is to bulk age for 2-3 months followed by another 2-3 months conditioning, and then I'd give it a full week or two in the fridge. I'll also be fermenting it for 4 weeks. So my first thought is to do a 1/2/2 mo ferm/age/cond with 1 wk in the fridge for one or two beers and see how it does. But if a barley wine needs about 9 months and only has a slightly higher ABV I'm wondering if that time frame is cut a bit too short, that maybe I ought to aim for 1/3/3 giving it 6 months of sitting before I try one. What say you?

I'm thinking I'll also prime with brown sugar.

I've not done a recipe quite like this before, but 2 lb & 6 oz of crystal malt seems very high in a 5-5.5 gal batch.


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rodwha said:

Using a calculator I see that ~ 1/2 lb will give me about 4 vol of CO2. Is that enough to create a large enough blanket in a bucket?

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Short answer, no. Temporarily, for a very short time, it would be ok. But shortly the laws of physics still come into play. There is no such thing as a "co2 blanket" that is described on the forum. Sure, during intense fermentation much c02 is produced and then the bucket would be c02 heavy, but once fermentation slows, things like the ideal gas law show themselves.

I'd either bottle and age in the bottle, or buy an appropriately sized carboy (or keg) if you want to age before bottling.

The crystal makes up 14% of my recipe. I've read that it can be as high as 20%, though I'm not sure if it's a bit much for an Old Ale… But I like plenty of flavor, and figured I'd see how it turned out. I have the 40 now, but need to get the 60 so it's not set in stone yet. Is there a reason I should cut it back? Maybe use 1/2 lb of 80 instead?

I'm uncertain about the laws of physics that will come into play. I thought that CO2, being heavier than air, would just sit there until the lid was removed? "Ideal gas law" - what is this?

I've also read of this "CO2 blanket" several times here. Maybe it's not a correct term or maybe it's a misunderstanding?

I've read of people leaving their beer sit in primary for extended periods of time. Would 4 months be pushing it?

Maybe this is an opportunity to use the 3 gal Better Bottle and bottle the rest and do a comparison test…

How long would this need to be aged? Is 4 months long enough? Is 6? I could wait 9 as I'm patient enough, but I just gotta know! And who wants to wait if you don't need to?

Anyone think 4 weeks isn't cutting it short on fermentation time? Would more be better? I'm actually wondering if an extended sit would be good in that it sort of bulk ages for a period prior to bottling the excess. Thoughts?

What Yooper saying is that the "CO2 layer" is only temporary. Excessive headspace is ok for primary fermentation since so much CO2 is being created it pushes out the lighter gases like O2. But eventually the gases return to a mixed equilibrium. So excessive headspace is not good if you're going to bulk age, even if you created more with a secondary fermentation, it's only a temporary fix.

Personally, I don't see the need to bulk age for that long. I'd leave it in primary for a month or so, then bottle. That's what I do with big beers. I do believe that aging certain types of beer is important, but i haven't seen any difference between bulk aging or aging in the bottle.

The advantage to aging in the bottle is that you can sample it at the 4/6/8/9+ month point and see where the sweet spot is for next time.

rodwha said:

The crystal makes up 14% of my recipe. I've read that it can be as high as 20%, though I'm not sure if it's a bit much for an Old Ale… But I like plenty of flavor, and figured I'd see how it turned out. I have the 40 now, but need to get the 60 so it's not set in stone yet. Is there a reason I should cut it back?

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For me it's just my personal preference, so take it as just that. Again, I've never brewed this style. 1 + lb of crystal for me in just about anything adds more non-fermentables than I care for, and always seems to leave too much residual sweetness for my personal taste-thresholds. I've even aged some with high crystal amounts (1-1.5 lbs) for over a year to see what would happen, and the sweetness remains. If your personal tastes are good with extra sweetness, or if this is within style guidelines, then go with your plan and see how it comes out. No better way to learn what YOU like.


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Thanks for clearing that up.

Would you say there's no point in keeping it primary beyond 4 weeks?

If there's no real reason to bulk age I suppose I'll pass on the Better Bottle and just bottle them all.

How does an Old Ale really differ from a Barley Wine? I've always read that they certainly ought to be bulk aged.

Outside of IPA's mostly I guess I've typically pushed for more flavor, which is why I also like to blend crystal malts too. But I generally push for 10% or more (usually 15% or more) crystal malts. in most everything, though I'm not sure how roasted malts such as chocolate come into play with those percentages, if it should be included or not (I realize it's not a crystal malt, but seems somewhat similar enough).

I've never used that high a percentage of crystal malt, but if you like what it does to your beer, then go for it! As long as you like the beer you've made, that's all matters.

I hesitate to give an exact amount of time for primary. It depends on what type of beer, strain, health, and amount of yeast, temp control, etc. I use starters, temp control, and yeast nutrient. Even for 1.080 beers I rarely go longer than 2 weeks in primary. If you have to go longer than 4 weeks I'd say you have some problems with your process. But that's not to say you have to rack your beer prior to the 4 week point just because I do. 2 weeks or 4 weeks or 2 months is just a arbitrary time. The correct answer is the beer is ready when it's ready. For some folks that's just a week or two, for others it's longer. It is generally best to err on the side of more time.

There actually are some minor differences between bulk aging and bottle conditioning, I just don't believe them to be significant. Well, not significant enough for my purposes. Perhaps I'm a bit of a hypocrite though as I have a quadrapel bulk aging right now. But that's due to a bottle availability and storage limitations rather than by design.

All that to say you can do it either way and the end product will be more or less the same. If you don't have the equipment to do it one way, then just go with the method you can. In this case, bottle once primary fermentation is complete, plus a few days, then bottle age it for a couple months. Try a bottle and if it's not ready wait another month before trying again. In my opinion, tracking the changes is what's fun about aging beers.

I would say that both Old Ales and Barleywines need to be aged, but they don't need to be bulk aged, if that makes sense. Bottle aging works fine too.

Primarying for over 4 weeks was a pseudo bulk aging thing, giving it more time together for things to better meld I figured, as that was my impression of bulk aging vs bottle aging.

I used to follow the typical 3/3/3 rule until I had an IPA drastically change on me in a week. From then on I began giving the majority of my beers 4/4 and a full week in the fridge, though I've reconsidered this approach recently, and am considering 3/4 and a week unless it's a strong and/or darker (stout) beer.

rodwha said:

Primarying for over 4 weeks was a pseudo bulk aging thing, giving it more time together for things to better meld I figured, as that was my impression of bulk aging vs bottle aging.

I used to follow the typical 3/3/3 rule until I had an IPA drastically change on me in a week. From then on I began giving the majority of my beers 4/4 and a full week in the fridge, though I've reconsidered this approach recently, and am considering 3/4 and a week unless it's a strong and/or darker (stout) beer.

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If that works for you, that's fine. I never age my beers for long, unless it's something like my oaked imperial American amber. I normally keep my beers about 10-14 days in the fermenter, and then package them if they are clear.

For something like a barleywine, aging in the carboy can be beneficial if someone gets into the bottles too quickly or drinks out of the keg, but it can age just fine in the bottle.