Anyone use liquid yeast without making a starter?

I'm just trying to understand because the directions on the last 3 liquid yeast i bought said to pitch straight from the vile between 75-70 degrees. It says if the beer is a high gravity or close/past the expiration date the a starter is recommended.

This one is White Labs California Ale

So is it perfectly normal to pitch straight from the vile without making a starter?

I've done it and made good beer. But I've definitely had better results when using a starter.

I either use a starter or two vials...that said, that can get real expensive so I will be washing my yeast and making a starter from here on out.

I've pitched one vial straight into a beer before I knew about making starters. The beer turned out pretty good, but the lag was scary. I thought my yeast was dead.

My first two brews were liquid yeast without starters and they turned out perfect with the final gravity right on the mark. Each also showed noticeable signs of fermentation within 12 hrs of pitching.
That said, those were before I knew about starters and I have used starters for the two batches where I used liquid yeast since then. I personally have not noticed a difference, but just because it worked fine doesn't mean I didn't get lucky.

I've direct pitched Wyeast packs before. It made beer. The same recipes were better when I remade them using a starter though. Check Mr. Malty or YeastCalc to get an estimate on how much yeast to pitch based on OG and batch size.

Like others, I have pitched directly from the vile/smack pack and made good beer. The first time that I had a slow start to my fermentation was the last time I did that. I now use starters when using liquid yeast regardless of the type of beer. Just makes me feel better doing it that way.

The directions on those vials say to hold the temp between 70 and 75 until fermentation begins, and then drop the temperature down to the ideal fermentation range. That's exactly opposite of what is commonly considered the best practice, which is to pitch low and let it rise. Yeast, from what I understand, can handle a gradual temperature rise better than a sudden drop, plus it's harder to lower the temperature once fermentation gets going. I assume they say to do it this way to make up for the fact that you're under pitching, so they tell you to keep it hot in the beginning to make sure the yeast get going.

Like most new brewers I pitched a single vial into my first several batches. They all had a kind of funky taste, which I can't say for sure was from pitching the one vial, since I've improved other variables as well, but they are definitely better now, so I won't be going back to doing it that way.

Esters and other flavor compounds that are generally considered off-flavors can and do form early, before you see fermentation actually happening, and higher temps encourage those flavor compounds more so than cool temps. Low pitch rates also favor those compounds. So combining the two is just going to amplify things.

boydster said:

Esters and other flavor compounds that are generally considered off-flavors can and do form early, before you see fermentation actually happening, and higher temps encourage those flavor compounds more so than cool temps. Low pitch rates also favor those compounds. So combining the two is just going to amplify things.

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Exactly. I wish I knew why they have such crazy directions. I get that they think starters might intimidate new brewers. But who has time to watch their fermenter all day for signs that fermentation has started and then try to lower the temperature by several degrees. That seems way harder, and for worse results.

When I first started brewing I too followed the directions.............I no longer do that Make a starter and your beer will improve. Consult a pitch rate calculator such as http://www.mrmalty.com or http://www.yeastcalc.com, plug in the numbers and determine the proper size starter required for each batch of beer

duboman said:

When I first started brewing I too followed the directions.............I no longer do that Make a starter and your beer will improve.

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Starting the ferment too warm in an attempt to compensate for under pitching is simply bad brewing practice (certain Belgian styles excepted). You'll get a cleaner, more successful ferment by pitching the correct number of billions of cells into (well-oxygenated if using liquid) wort at a temperature a couple of degrees below the low end of the optimal temp for the yeast strain used and letting it come up to your target ferment temp. Unless it's for a really low gravity wort, that means using a starter for liquid yeast.

It may not take off as quickly or as vigorously at the lower temp, but there's no prize in brewing for the fastest or most explosive ferment. When someone posts that their ferment took off in a just a few hours and is going like mad, my first thought is that they likely pitched too hot.

BigFloyd said:

Starting the ferment too warm in an attempt to compensate for under pitching is simply bad brewing practice (certain Belgian styles excepted). You'll get a cleaner, more successful ferment by pitching the correct number of billions of cells into (well-oxygenated if using liquid) wort at a temperature a couple of degrees below the low end of the optimal temp for the yeast strain used and letting it come up to your target ferment temp. Unless it's for a really low gravity wort, that means using a starter for liquid yeast. It may not take off as quickly or as vigorously at the lower temp, but there's no prize in brewing for the fastest or most explosive ferment. When someone posts that their ferment took off in a just a few hours and is going like mad, my first thought is that they likely pitched too hot.

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I agree, I pitch cold and allow to self rise to the desired temp and then hold. This creates a nice proper environment for the yeast to multiply and get to work in a healthy manner

depends on the type of beer you're making. some people prefer stressing yeast for some styles of beer.

brent77 said:

depends on the type of beer you're making. some people prefer stressing yeast for some styles of beer.

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Which is why I said "certain Belgian styles excepted"

I've made many 5g batches 1.056 and under using single smack packs both with and without starters and haven't been able to tell a difference. I take the MrMalty fanboys with a grain of salt. Yeast is the magic that makes the beer but much of what is posted online goes far beyond the advice I've received from LHBS's and other sources.

To make "happy" yeast, you need the following:
Healthy yeast in appropriate amounts to do the job.
Oxygen
Appropriate temps.

Can and will they do the job without all of these? Yes

But happy yeast make good beer into "better" beer.

In lieu of the OP's usage of WY American ale 1056, I would just use dry yeast (rehydrated in warm water). The equivalent is US 05. It costs about half as much as the same liquid (WY 1056/WL 001), and you get many more yeast cells without having to futz with underpitching (one vial) or making a starter from this one vial. I think some stores and/or brewers believe liquid is superior to dry; that is not the case.
I only use liquid where there is no good dry equivalent.
cheers,
Wendy

sroberts said:

I've made many 5g batches 1.056 and under using single smack packs both with and without starters and haven't been able to tell a difference. I take the MrMalty fanboys with a grain of salt. Yeast is the magic that makes the beer but much of what is posted online goes far beyond the advice I've received from LHBS's and other sources.

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There is nothing "fanboy" about ideal pitching rate. It's empirical data. What you do to calculate pitch rate aside, pitching .75 million cells per ml per degree P has been proven pretty effective for producing a clean (low yeast profile), healthy ale fermentation. Pitching at half that rate... well... just isn't the most effective way to realize a clean, healthy fermentation.

Whether making someone else's recipe/kit, or taking the time to craft a recipe of my own, I certainly wouldn't settle for using half of the grain bill or cut each hop addition in half. Why would I only use half the amount of yeast called for? All I did was make some wort... I am depending on the yeast to see things through and make the wort into beer, so I want them to have the best chance of doing that while stressing them as little as possible (unless making a Belgian or something to that effect).

boydster said:

There is nothing "fanboy" about ideal pitching rate. It's empirical data. What you do to calculate pitch rate aside, pitching .75 million cells per ml per degree P has been proven pretty effective for producing a clean (low yeast profile), healthy ale fermentation. Pitching at half that rate... well... just isn't the most effective way to realize a clean, healthy fermentation. Whether making someone else's recipe/kit, or taking the time to craft a recipe of my own, I certainly wouldn't settle for using half of the grain bill or cut each hop addition in half. Why would I only use half the amount of yeast called for? All I did was make some wort... I am depending on the yeast to see things through and make the wort into beer, so I want them to have the best chance of doing that while stressing them as little as possible (unless making a Belgian or something to that effect).

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+1 to this.

Hit the nail on the head.

If I could figure out how to "like" on my phone app, I'd be happier; I have to settle for a post.

If you take the time to craft a good beer, with the grains and hops, why take a chance with poor yeast quality?

boydster said:

There is nothing "fanboy" about ideal pitching rate. It's empirical data. What you do to calculate pitch rate aside, pitching .75 million cells per ml per degree P has been proven pretty effective for producing a clean (low yeast profile), healthy ale fermentation. Pitching at half that rate... well... just isn't the most effective way to realize a clean, healthy fermentation. Whether making someone else's recipe/kit, or taking the time to craft a recipe of my own, I certainly wouldn't settle for using half of the grain bill or cut each hop addition in half. Why would I only use half the amount of yeast called for? All I did was make some wort... I am depending on the yeast to see things through and make the wort into beer, so I want them to have the best chance of doing that while stressing them as little as possible (unless making a Belgian or something to that effect).

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Exactly! Spot on!