Triple taste horrid

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cabledawg

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Location
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Brewed the ivan modified triple on 12-6-09
8.00 lb Pilsen Light Extract (DME)
0.25 lb Aromatic Malt (grain)
0.25 lb Cara-Pils (grain)
0.25 lb Munich Malt (grain)
2.00 lb Candi Sugar

1.50 oz Goldings, East Kent (45 min)
1.00 oz Hallertauer (15 min)

1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient
2 Pkgs White Labs #WLP500

with an O.G. of 1.100. Did a late addition of most of the lme so as not to produce more un-fermentables. Fermentation went like normal. Transfered to tap and draft today(F.G. 1.020) and man it taste horrid. No sign of infection or any thing. Used spring water for the boil like normal. Taste was that of soap and bad wine. I know it is not much to go on but that all I got.
 
You sure it's ready to drink at this point? Not sure what the going theory is on DMS in pilsen extracts. I know there's an argument that much of it is driven out during the creation of the extract, but, I'm not sure about all of it. With a late addition on the extract, that would be one of my concerns. Not sure if that would result in a soapy flavor though. I've heard that high temps can sometimes result in that character and have seen mention of the same thing with EKG hops. Don't know, just throwing out ideas.
 
I put it in the TAD container to card and put it in the back of the closet to forget about for a while. Temps were kept at a solid 62-63 in a water bath. I have brewed 10 beers and none of them have tasted this bad out of the primary. Never thought of DMS with DME that may be it. Thanks for replying so quickly
 
Well, I couldn't say for sure if DMS would cause this type of flavor. I do believe that DMS can still be a concern with extracts and, I would think, a late addition might accentuate that. Could be it's just too young at this point. Maybe some more experienced tripel brewers have some ideas?
 
Well I have brewed three beers over 1.090 and none of them taste that bad out of the primary. I hope long term storage is the answer
 
This is an extremely light beer (in color and taste) for the amount of fermentables that are in it. This is one you need to age for a long period of time before the complex flavors and light body merge and create something wonderful. Put it aside for another three months at least and see if it's any better.
 
With Tripels we are talking months before they come into their own. We're not talking a few weeks here, more like 6-12 months before it is going to come into it's own.
 
yea phew.. that is a heavy bastard. That 2 pounds of candi sugar is most likely what affecting the taste the most, and the reason for letting that bad boy brew sit and condition for another 4 months :p...
 
With Tripels we are talking months before they come into their own. We're not talking a few weeks here, more like 6-12 months before it is going to come into it's own.

I must side with Revvy on this one trips are made for cellaring.

Pat
 
yea phew.. that is a heavy bastard. That 2 pounds of candi sugar is most likely what affecting the taste the most, and the reason for letting that bad boy brew sit and condition for another 4 months :p...

I doubt it very much that the sugar is causing the problem he is having. Many many Belgian beers have more sugar in what he used. Look at JZ Golden strong ale 3lbs of sugar and has won many awards. Anyone can make wort it is all on the fermentation side that separates the good brewers from the bad brewers. I put more focus on learning this side of brewing to expanded my knowledge of brewing.
 
I doubt it very much that the sugar is causing the problem he is having.

But actually a lot of sugar IS going to require more time to mellow out. You're making a high alcohol beer and it is going to have a harsh alcoholic burn/taste for a long time. My Belgian Dark Strong, with an og of 1.090 wouldn't even carb for 3 months and at 9 months only then started losing it's rocket fuel flavor. And it had iirc 3 pounds of homemade candi sugar.

Lazy Llama came up with a nice diagram to explain this;

chart.jpg
 
But the Belgian brewers have their beer on the shelf within 2 months of brew day. If our beer takes 6 times as long as theirs to be drinkable, shouldn't we at least wonder why?
 
But the Belgian brewers have their beer on the shelf within 2 months of brew day. If our beer takes 6 times as long as theirs to be drinkable, shouldn't we at least wonder why?

You know, you ALWAYS bring up "Commercial breweries" remmy...But they do things on such a huge scale, and in much more controlled environments and with HUGE AMOUNTS OF YEAST...That it's really comparing apples to oranges.

Very rarely is the "but the commercial breweries do this" useful for homebrewers...it just muddies up the new brewers understanding of things.

Who cares how long a commercial brewery takes to turnover their beer....I know from my own experience that my big gravity belgians with a lot of sugar need months and months to get drinkable.
 
You know, you ALWAYS bring up "Commercial breweries" remmy...But they do things on such a huge scale, and in much more controlled environments and with HUGE AMOUNTS OF YEAST...That it's really comparing apples to oranges.

Very rarely is the "but the commercial breweries do this" useful for homebrewers...it just muddies up the new brewers understanding of things.

Who cares how long a commercial brewery takes to turnover their beer....I know from my own experience that my big gravity belgians with a lot of sugar need months and months to get drinkable.

Do you care to stop hand waving for a minute and explain some actual differences?

I know from my own experience that none of my beers have off flavors following fermentation.

I can tell you exactly what me and the commercial breweries are doing that you are apparently not doing.
 
True Revvy on the time thing. I have also done big beers my Dark Strong came in at 1.102 and did have a fair amount of sugar in it. I do not notice any "Soapy" flavor coming out of my big beers with sugar added. Look back he said Soapy and bad wine not Hot alcohol. That was my point here is I didn't think the sugar caused his soapy taste.
 
HUGE AMOUNTS OF YEAST

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding

Of course its pretty easy for home brewers to use the same pitching rate as commercial brewers, especially since commercial Belgian brewers use lower rates than German/American brewers.

We would have also accepted temperature control, sanitation, and low oxygen pickup.
 
Hmmm...This from Brouwerij Van Steenberge; Makers of such great beers like,

Augustijn
Biere Du Boucanier Golden
Biere Du Boucanier Dark
Biere Du Boucanier Red
Bornem Double
Bornem Triple
Bruegel
Cherish Kriek
Cherish Raspberry
Ertvelds Wit
Gulden Draak
Keizersberg
Leute Bok
Monks Cafe
Oude Zuipers
Piraat
Tikka



Triple ages longer than Double, but not a year though. The Bornem Triple is considered one of the best Belgian Abbey Triples. Like most Abbey Triples it has the color of gold, like the ripe ears of barley in the fields on early summer, just before harvest. A warm glow shines through the glass. After enjoying one glass, a happy glow is on your face. The light golden color and the flowery aroma mask the strength of the Bornem Triple. This beer is 9 % alc.by vol. strong, which is surprising, since you taste more the soft fruitiness of this rich beer. It's smooth and silky in the mouth with a bite from the hops in the follow.

The notion of "double" and "triple" has nothing to do with the number of times the beer is fermented. Time after time, beer-festival after beer-festival you hear these popular beer-enthousiasts tell: "This Triple is fermented 3 times." Wrong. When a beer is a double or a triple, it means that the brewer added twice or three times the regular amount of malt in the brewkettle. More malt, means more starches, which can be converted into sugars, which can be converted into alcohol during the fermentation process. Twice I said "can", because this is not for sure. Not all starches are converted into sugar and not all sugar is converted into alcohol. The brewer knows how to control these two processes in function of the beer he wants to brew.

Most beers are fermented only once. The Bornem Triple and the Bornem Double are fermented a second time in the bottle or in the keg. This practice is called "bottle conditioning". After the lagering and the fermentation, the Bornem is bottled or kegged and a second yeast is added in the container. The container (bottle or keg) is stored in a warm room for several weeks. The second fermention consumes part of the remaining sugars in the beer and the oxygen, that came into the container during the "bottling". It is one of the oldest practices to store and conserve beer for a long time. It is said to be invented by the monks, maybe more than thousand years ago. This technique is still used to bottle and conserve the best Belgian Abbey Ales. The beer is not pasteurized or sterilized. No, it stays a living product that evolves over time. Yes, you can keep the beer for many years. A little note for the home-brewers: the yeast that you find on the bottom of the bottle is NOT the yeast, used for the main and first fermentation. This yeast is the secret and the most valuable asset of the brewer's recipe.

The bottle conditioning is also used for our Augustijn Abbey Ale, our famous Piraat and Gulden Draak, and our Flaxhead (Vlaskop) and Wooden Head (the Houten Kop). When you pour bottle conditioned beer in your glass, you see the yeast on the bottom of the bottle and your beer becomes cloudy when you pour the yeast in the glass. Sometimes flakes or little pieces of yeast are floating in your glass. You can see them but you can't feel them. They are so soft. Brewers-yeast is sold in every Health shop, since it is a rich complex of Vitamin B


Hmmm doesn't sound like THEY rush their tripels on the market, does it?????

And what they say about Piraat, which few could argue isn't one of the best Belgain beers out there;

Triple means that the brewer used three times the normal amount of barley malt, thus starting with more starches, getting more sugars after cooking, and more alcohol after a long fermentation. The Piraat is re-fermented in the bottle, and in the keg! The original style of the Piraat is similar to the IPA style. It is a beer that was created many centuries ago to go on ships. Indeed, sailors drank beer on board. Nobody drank water on land, why would anybody then take water on a boat? Even the Pilgrim fathers landed in Plymouth Rock because they were out of beer, and had to land to find fresh water to brew more beer. So says their logbook.

When people started to sail out for longer voyages, the captains needed a beer with high ?food? value that could be kept fresh for a long time. The Flemish sailors, called merchants by their friends and pirates by their enemies, had a very strong and potent beer like the Piraat on board.

In fact on their website I see NOTHING about a few week turnover.
 
Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding

Of course its pretty easy for home brewers to use the same pitching rate as commercial brewers, especially since commercial Belgian brewers use lower rates than German/American brewers.

We would have also accepted temperature control, sanitation, and low oxygen pickup.

Yeah, but that is academic to this guys beer isn't it? More than likely HE didn't do it on this particular batch, or he wouldn't be complaining about it, would he?

Again, apples and oranges...it's all well and good if we talk about the best way to brew...BUT OBVIOUSLY HE DIDN'T OR HE WOULDN'T HAVE STARTED A THREAD ABOUT IT? HUH?

He might have started a thread saying "My tripel which took me only two months from grain to glass is the awesomist in the world, mostly because I pitch 3/4 of a gallon of yeast, and kept my fermentation temps down, and aerated properly!!!!!"

But most folks just starting out, don't know about stuff like that...that's why they start threads like this. :rolleyes:

And gee, do you even brew tripels? And are your drinkable right away?
 
I made an extract trippel about 6 months ago. It was in the primary 1 month, secondary for 2 months and then bottled. I tasted it after a month in bottles and it tasted like alcohol and cleanser. I waited another month and it was a little smoother, still a little cleansery (is that a word?), but getting better. I tasted one yesterday and it is nicely drinkable. All cleanser flavor is gone and it has a subtly sweet finish. This beer is just hitting its stride. I can't wait to try one in march, it will be fantastic.
 
Time is a trippels friend plain and simple. And while some brewers turn over beer much quicker than they probably should for obvious reasons the beer still tastes better after it has sat.
A local brewery, Dark horse'es Black Bier comes to mind. That is one of my favorite beers, especially after it is allowed to age. Hate the labels though, they put them on with something terrible that is very difficult to get off the bottles. The label comes off but it has the sticky residue.. Sorry off topic but had to say it.
 
Did a late addition of most of the lme so as not to produce more un-fermentables.
-
Taste was that of soap and bad wine..


First where did you hear that un-fermentables was caused by boiling the extract longer? The fermentables are pretty much set by the mashing process, by adding extract later in the boil you can get a lighter wort.

here are a couple links to help figureout the odd taste:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html
http://***********/resources/troubleshooting


Soapy
Soapy flavors can caused by not washing your glass very well, but they can also be produced by the fermentation conditions. If you leave the beer in the primary fermentor for a relatively long period of time after primary fermentation is over ("long" depends on the style and other fermentation factors), soapy flavors can result from the breakdown of fatty acids in the trub. Soap is, by definition, the salt of a fatty acid; so you are literally tasting soap.



---------------------------------------------------

My Belgian Dark Strong, with an og of 1.090

apples and oranges...
thats a dark beer, lighter beers (color) are ready rather fast, my Houblon clone uses a hair under a kilo of sugar and is ready in 5wks. The keg will kick within another 2-3wks everytime.



Brouwerij Van Steenberge is a contract brewer and not all of the beers are good, sorry but they are very hit-n-miss.
 

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