Extract Full Boil Process

So after stumbling over a few threads I've realized I may have been doing a few things wrong. I've upgraded to full boils a few batches ago. Up until now I've always used the instructions that came with my Brewmaster's Select kits but just boiled 6 gallons instead of 2. Basically my method went like this:

-Steep grains from cold to 160*F (in the full 6 gallons) then hold at 160*F for 30 min.
-After 30 min raise temp to boil. The instant boil was achieved remove grains and heat. (this is what the instructions say to do)
-Dissolve all DME and bring back to boil.
-At boil add bittering hops
-Add remaining hops at specific intervals.

From what I can gather this is what I should adjust:

-Steep grains at 160*F for 30 min in water at a ratio of 2 qts per 1 lb of grains then sparge with 170*F water at a ratio of .5 qts per 1 lb of grain. This should reduce my chances of extracting tannins.
-Discard grains and top up my kettle to 6 gallons, dissolve DME.
-Adjust the amount of hops used based on the fact I should get better utilization (I'll use BeerSmith).

Any comments or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Also, one thing I've noticed messing around with BeerSmith. When I input the recipes from Brewmaster's Select kits using a boil volume of 2 gallons (per kit instructions) my IBUs are way lower than what the kit details. But when I adjust the boil volume to 6 gallons, it is almost spot on. The only thing that I can guess is that the kits ingredient list is designed for full boils but the instructions are for partial. Seems odd to me Would there be any other explanation?

"Sparging" is typically a term reserved for mashing rather than steeping, but your process is generally sound. Try to keep your temps on specialty grains down below 170, and if you can manage the extra pot it won't hurt to steep in about 1 gallon per pound or less. If you want to split your steep into two steps like you describe, it won't hurt. I doubt you'll get much more extraction, but if you do don't forget that you will then be deviating from your recipe's intensions.

I'm not familiar with Brewmaster's Select kits, but your explanation sounds about right.

So do you think rinsing the grains with 170*F water is worth the effort?

Is steeping the grains in the full 6 gallons the way to go? It seems like you would get pretty good extraction since it would be so diluted.

WTF_Brewing said:

Is steeping the grains in the full 6 gallons the way to go? It seems like you would get pretty good extraction since it would be so diluted.

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Not from what I've read. It seems that steeping in too much water will increase the risk of extracting tannins. Check out No. 5 from this list
http://byo.com/component/resource/article/Issues/231-October%202005/10-10-steps-to-better-extract-brewing

BloodSweatandBeers said:

So do you think rinsing the grains with 170*F water is worth the effort?

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To my mind, this is three separate questions:

First, will you get more effective extraction: probably a bit, but I can't say for sure. I always just pull the bag out, give it a good squeeze, and chuck it.

And second, is it a good idea? I'd expect that this depends. If you are following a recipe and want to get the results your recipe's designer intended, probably not. Otherwise, I'm not sure. I'd be curious to see if rinsing pulls more unconverted starch from the grain, but I don't have any data to say one way or the other.

And third, assuming no problems with the first two questions, is it worth it? That depends on how much work it is to get the 170 degree water vs. the savings from being able to use less grain (which would be in dimes, not dollars of course). For me, not really.

So, the punchline: I don't see the benefit, but I wouldn't try to convince you not to do it if you do.

Thanks for your perspective MalFet!

I think I'm going to just pull the bag and place it in a strainer over a bowl. After a while I'll put whatever ended up in the bowl back in. I really want to keep the amount of pots/kettles to a minimum.

As far as adjusting my hops based on my boil volume, I'm thinking it's not so important as many posts I've read conclude. I just listened to a Basic Brewing Radio podcast with John Palmer saying that wort gravity doesn't affect hop utilization but that its actually the amount of hot break in the wort that actually affects hop utilization.

The more you learn about homebrewing the less you know...

Keep in mind that steeping grains are just that- steeping grains. You make a tea with them, and get flavor and color out of them. It doesn't matter if you steep them in 2 quarts, 2 gallons, or 10 gallons.

But when you add some other grains to your beer, you have to do a partial mash. This uses grains like Munich malt, biscuit malt, flaked grains, etc, that must be mashed.

Because it's often easiest just to always do the same procedure for every batch, no matter what kind of grains you use, I always recommend a procedure that works for everything.

I suggest using 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain, and steep (mash) in the 150-160 degree range for 45 minutes. Lift out the grain bag, and pour 170 degree water over the grain bag (it's easier if it's in a colander) up to your boil volume.

That means you can do steeping grains, a partial mash, or even all-grain, the same way. No harm will come if you steep crystal malt in 6 gallons, but it will be a too-high pH if you want to do it with Munich malt. Instead of overthinking it, I just always do 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain, and then sparging with up to my boil volume. I do that with all-grain batches also, so I know it works.

"-Steep grains at 160*F for 30 min in water at a ratio of 2 qts per 1 lb of grains then sparge with 170*F water at a ratio of .5 qts per 1 lb of grain."


i keep seeing this and it confuses me. if 170 is the danger threshold for extracting unwanted tannins, then why do you rinse/sparge the grains with 170 water? what is the purpose of using water that hot to do this? thanks.

Well that's good to know. Thanks Yooper!

The last batch I did I steeped 3/4 lb of Crystal 10L in 6 gallons of 170*F 30 min. I then brought the temp to a boil, the instant boil was achieved I removed the grains (per the instructions). After reading I began to worry that I increased my chances of extracting tannins due to the volume of water and temps above 170*F.

So from what you're saying, with the Crystal I used, I didn't "mess up"? If so, what about allowing the crystal to be in a temps above 170*F?

Is there a list of grains that need to be steeped in certain ratios and temps and others that don't?

Thanks for the help.

BloodSweatandBeers said:

Thanks for your perspective MalFet!

I think I'm going to just pull the bag and place it in a strainer over a bowl. After a while I'll put whatever ended up in the bowl back in. I really want to keep the amount of pots/kettles to a minimum.

As far as adjusting my hops based on my boil volume, I'm thinking it's not so important as many posts I've read conclude. I just listened to a Basic Brewing Radio podcast with John Palmer saying that wort gravity doesn't affect hop utilization but that its actually the amount of hot break in the wort that actually affects hop utilization.

The more you learn about homebrewing the less you know...

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Not to complicate your new-found serenity, but I'm not sure you are reading the history of the gravity/hop utilization thing quite right.

For a long time, people (including Glenn Tinseth, who designed the most commonly used IBU approximation forumula) thought that hop utilization was impacted negatively by wort gravity.

More recently, there has been some speculation that it isn't actually gravity directly, but instead break material (protein coagulation), that decreases hop utilization. For grain brewers, there is a relatively good correlation between gravity and break material, so the old assumption works. If the new thinking is right, though, this would change things for people who brew with extract, because most extracts produce relatively little break.

All that said, volume is still a very important factor. Equivalent hops in 5 gallons of 1.040 beer might see similar extraction to those hops in 5 gallons of 1.080 beer, but I believe you'll see different amounts of extraction in 5 gallons than in 2.5 gallons of water. The gravity thing and the water volume thing seem related, but they are actually two different mechanisms.

The simplest thing is to brew recipes intended for partial boil as a partial boil, or recipes intended for full boil as a full boil. Switching things up is fine and dandy, of course, but it might require a bit of experimentation if you are trying to hit specific targets precisely. That said, this isn't an enormous margin we're talking about here. In any case, it will be good beer.

I hope others will chime in if any of this is incorrect.

edsrockin said:

"-Steep grains at 160*F for 30 min in water at a ratio of 2 qts per 1 lb of grains then sparge with 170*F water at a ratio of .5 qts per 1 lb of grain."


i keep seeing this and it confuses me. if 170 is the danger threshold for extracting unwanted tannins, then why do you rinse/sparge the grains with 170 water? what is the purpose of using water that hot to do this? thanks.

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Hot water aids fluidity. Tannins become more soluble in warmer water, but the bigger factor is pH. 170ºF is the number that gets thrown around as a "good enough" upper limit for temperature for mashers. It's mostly just a balance between two concerns: grain bed fluidity and tannins. For steeping, temperature precision is not quite so critical, though Yooper's point about maintaining a consistent procedure is a good one.

BloodSweatandBeers said:

The last batch I did I steeped 3/4 lb of Crystal 10L in 6 gallons of 170*F 30 min. I then brought the temp to a boil, the instant boil was achieved I removed the grains (per the instructions). After reading I began to worry that I increased my chances of extracting tannins due to the volume of water and temps above 170*F.

So from what you're saying, with the Crystal I used, I didn't "mess up"? If so, what about allowing the crystal to be in a temps above 170*F?

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I'm sure you'll be fine. Your "old method" described here might not be a brewing best practice, but I'd be surprised if what you've done here results in mouth-puckering astringency. If you don't taste a problem, there is none

BloodSweatandBeers said:

Is there a list of grains that need to be steeped in certain ratios and temps and others that don't?

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The distinction you are making here is between grains that can be steeped and grains that need to be mashed.

Steeping, as Yooper mentioned, is like making tea. You are using warm water to pull sugars and colors that are already in the grain out. This is largely a mechanical process.

Mashing is using enzymes in the grain to convert starches into sugars. This is largely a chemical process.

As a rule of thumb, crystal/caramel and roasted malts do well steeped because some amount of their sugars have already been "mashed" by the grain maltster. Other grains, including all of your base grains, generally should be mashed to be useful.

There are more exceptions to this than rules. Sometimes you'll see people steeping a small amount of torrified wheat, for example, to help with head retention. Some of the darker base malts like Munich get steeped occasionally, though I have never had good results with this.

Hope this helps!

BloodSweatandBeers, I noticed your location is in Rota Spain. My good friend and brew partner just took a job over there in Rota. I was talking to hime this morning and he said he is looking for somewhere to buy his ingredients. Do you know of a place over there? If so could you let me know so I can pass it on to him.

There is nothing really local anywhere close to Rota that I could ever find. I ordered everything online. The shipping was a little high but I was able to save a few dollars because it I had a military address.