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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Extract Brewing > 60 min. full boil Malt Extract vs. late addition Malt Extract - What Say You?




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Old 04-20-2012, 01:37 AM   #21
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The way I understand it and the method I try to follow is to make up your boil with a gravity of 1.040 which is aparently the gravity in which hops are best utilized. A SG of 1.040 is obtain by 1:10 ratio of DME:liquor ie. 100g/1L (.25lbs /1q). The largest posssible boil volume is best. A 60 min boil is only necessary if use a full extract recipe where bittering is necessary. If one was to use a pre-hopped kit and some late addition hops a 30 min (or less) boil is all that is needed to achieve this. The extract (kit) is then added at flame out.

This is the method I've been using for the past year since the kind folks over at http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-guild/talk-brewing taught me that it was not necessary to boil all the extract especially the pre-hopped kits.



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Old 04-20-2012, 08:29 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopHead73

that is correct. As Yooper stated before, you get greater hop utilization with a lower gravity wort during the boil.
So if you are adding the majority of your extract as a late addition then you would have a lower gravity during the boil, meaning you will need less hops to reach your desired IBU.
.
Yooper had in fact said that utilization was independent of boil gravity and that her source was direct communication with John Palmer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper
Ah, but that has been disproven in the last couple of years. Hops utilization is independent of boil gravity, according to John Palmer and he admits that in the past in How To Brew he "got it wrong".
This question is baffling me at the moment too, I plan to do two gallon boils with one pound per gallon, using utilization data at 1.045 gravity. I don't know of any calculators that DONT correct utilization for boil gravity despite what clearly seems to be a reliable consensus that the variable is irrelevant.

My proposed solution is to calculate and execute at 1.045 where any discrepancy will be minimized.


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Old 04-24-2012, 02:28 AM   #23
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Is the article saying to boil everything less the LME for the 60 minute schedule and then add the LME at flame out, hold for 10 min, then cool? Or add the LME at say 50 min? I'm typically boiling my chiller at 50 min which is going to make adding LME a little tricky. Any thoughts.

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Old 04-24-2012, 04:15 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbell525 View Post
Is the article saying to boil everything less the LME for the 60 minute schedule and then add the LME at flame out, hold for 10 min, then cool? Or add the LME at say 50 min? I'm typically boiling my chiller at 50 min which is going to make adding LME a little tricky. Any thoughts.
You dont need to boil the LME at all. Just pasteurize it. It can be done at flameout. I reduce the flame but dont remove it, then stir like hell while the swmbo slowly pours it in. When its completely incorporated and dissolved, I remove from heat and rest the wort for a few mins to insure pasteurization before chilling.

The wort chiller can get in the way. Even if you add the LME at 15 mins by removing from the heat, stirring in, returning to a boil and restarting the clock at 15 mins, it makes a huge difference in flavor and color.

Or edit: you can immerse your chiller in a bucket of sanitizer.
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Old 05-30-2013, 09:28 PM   #25
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Not to drag up an old thread, but I've recently started late additions of LME and have been doing some reading. The method I came up with is: 15 minutes before the end of the boil, dump the LME and 1L of boiling water into a pot on the kitchen stove. After stirring to get a consistent liquid, turn on the gas and heat until 5 minutes before the end of the boil. Pause the timer, dump in the LME, bring back to a boil, then restart the timer. This way, the LME is closer to boil than just adding it cold to the kettle and you avoid scorching. Boil is regained in usually less than 5 minutes.

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Old 05-30-2013, 09:39 PM   #26
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I keep ending up on these zombie threads today...

downunder, I think you are making too much work for yourself that way. If it works for you and you like it, great, but there really is no need to stop the boil, add the extract, and then restart the boil. That's using a lot more energy (electric, propane, or whatever you are using) for little or no apparent benefit when you compare to adding the extract at flameout. Now if you are doing this because you need an extra few minutes away from SWMBO or whatever, by all means have at it! By letting the boil stop, then stirring in the extract, and then re-boiling, you are guaranteeing the process will take longer.

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Old 05-30-2013, 09:50 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boydsbitchinbrews View Post
I keep ending up on these zombie threads today...

downunder, I think you are making too much work for yourself that way. If it works for you and you like it, great, but there really is no need to stop the boil, add the extract, and then restart the boil. That's using a lot more energy (electric, propane, or whatever you are using) for little or no apparent benefit when you compare to adding the extract at flameout. Now if you are doing this because you need an extra few minutes away from SWMBO or whatever, by all means have at it! By letting the boil stop, then stirring in the extract, and then re-boiling, you are guaranteeing the process will take longer.
I'm not using pre-packaged tins, but bulk bins from the LHB. If you saw the way they dispense LME <shudder>, you'd boil it too. I understand pasteurization typically occurs at 180F, but I prefer to be safe. And I don't stop the boil to add the LME - I stop the timer until the kettle is back to boiling, usually less than 5 minutes. I put the LME in a separate pot from the kettle on the kitchen stove. The kettle is on a propane burner on the back deck. It may use more energy to heat the LME before addition, but it saves the "stirring like hell" to get cold LME into solution and provides a more consistent addition. So it really only adds a couple of minutes to the process.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:19 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
But when I did a 15 IBU beer and did a late addition of the extract (and a full boil after that), the beer was perceptibly more bitter. When I calculated it with software on the Tinseth scale, it showed the IBUs jumping for 15 to 27 IBUs and it actually tasted like that. After the beer aged a few weeks, though, it tasted like the original beer.

When I mentioned this to John Palmer, he said something like "Hops utilization is independent of wort gravity, but break material may impact the utilization."
Palmer’s statement that "Hops utilization is independent of wort gravity, but break material may impact the utilization." in response to a comment about bitterness in an extract beer seems contradictory, or at least confusing. Other recent references from BYO, Glenn Tinseth, and others who are highly qualified on the subject are also in disagreement. Here are some examples:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Hop_utilization (On website today - impact)

http://itunes.apple.com/podcast/basic-brewing-radio/id75092679 (2008 - No direct affect, but relationship)

http://hw.libsyn.com/p/3/0/4/30433c81ada8b244/bbr03-20-08ibu.mp3?sid=251d3a5868976ecd30ab5d0ad736fa52&l_s id=18257&l_eid=&l_mid=1511409&expiration=133183404 1&hwt=a1babd357d2d091bbf481fb8c715d1b4 (2008 - Affect, but lower magnitude)

http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2011/02/10/beer-bitterness-and-ibus-with-glenn-tinseth-bshb-podcast-9/ (2011 - no direct affect, but strong correlation)

e-mail from Glenn Tinseth in 2012: “There is really no question about whether alpha acid utilization is related to wort gravity.”

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/02/26/brewing-high-gravity-beers-with-john-palmer-beersmith-podcast-33/ (2012 – Correlation, but not due to solubility)

http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/37-hops/867-how-can-i-get-better-hop-utilization (2012 - Correlation)

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2010 (2010 – No correlation)

http://realbeer.com/hops/FAQ.html#units (2013 on website today - Correlation)

It seems to me that the jury is still out. I just hope this gets resolved soon.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:22 PM   #29
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I agree. Thanks for all the refs...

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Old 05-31-2013, 04:37 PM   #30
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I've brewed an IPA partial mash twice, and both times I've added the LME right after flame-out. The jug of LME had been sitting in a sink full of hot water (max 130F out of my tap) during the last 10 minutes of the boil in order to loosen it up a bit, so even though it's pretty warm, it still aids in cooling the 200F+ degree wort.

Even after adding the cooler LME, the wort is still more than hot enough to achieve pasteurization (over 161F for over 15 seconds).



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