Unconventional AG Mashing: An academic Inquiry

So, this is my first post.

As a quick background, my wife, brother in-law, and I started home brewing last June, and have been brewing about 10 gal/month since. I think we just did our 25th batch.

For Christmas we upgraded to all grain, and have brewed four batches so far, a barley wine, an American strong, a coffee stout, and an IPA.

As the dope in charge of knowing what the heck we are doing, I screwed up and miss-interpreted the process of AG mashing. Here is our basic method so far. We are batch sparging.

Mash for 30 min at 152 f
Recirculate and lauter, which usually takes about 15 min
Add sparge water, stir, and let sit for another 30 min
Recirculate and lauter again, about 15 min

So, total we have an hour and a half into our mashing time.

Why is this an academic inquiry you say? Because now I have learned that this is not the conventional way of doing this. Also, because after finding some technical flaws in the first two batches our second two have been spot on for OG.

So here is my question in a nut shell. What impact is the method that I am using having on my wort? Time wise I think I’m netting about the same for doing the conventional 60 mash and 10 min sparge, so no advantage there. My temps seem to be holding ok (I’m using the 10 gal cooler from Northern as my mash tun). Also, OG seems to be hitting its target, but what impact is this having on the quality/characteristics of my wort.

Thoughts and thanks.

That is kind of a wierd way of doing it, but as long as u r hitting ur Pre boil gravity and your post boil gravity, I don't see any problems.

I do a 60 min mash (sometimes 75) Then it takes a good 30 min to clear up my runnings and get em in my pot. Put my sparge water in, mix real good. Then another good 30 min to 45 to run all that threw. I let my tun drain REAL slow

If I'm reading you correctly, this sounds like a modified no sparge method. That would theoretically yield a lower efficiency. Also not sure what that buys you over a traditional no sparge other than you are mashing out.

Um...U are best off getting the Papazian and reading about mashing, sparging, etc. That method that you used will allow all the undesirable stuff in the grain bed to be rinsed into the kettle for a very inferior brew.

The grain bed should be undisturbed during lautering, and the cloudy first runnings should be recirculated until clear.

I am not going to write a book as it has already been written....

Terek said:

That is kind of a wierd way of doing it, but as long as u r hitting ur Pre boil gravity and your post boil gravity, I don't see any problems.

I do a 60 min mash (sometimes 75) Then it takes a good 30 min to clear up my runnings and get em in my pot. Put my sparge water in, mix real good. Then another good 30 min to 45 to run all that threw. I let my tun drain REAL slow

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If you are batch sparging you aren't getting any advantage by draining real slow. The diffusion of sugars from grain to liquid occurs when you add the sparge water and mix. It isn't going to to change if you drain slow vs. fast.

Also, 30 minutes to get clear runnings? Maybe that is function of draining slow, but I usually get clear wort after running out about 1-1/2 quarts at about half-max drain speed (takes 1-2 minutes, tops). After that, I open it up full blast and put it into the BK.

I think you are missing a big advantage of batch sparging...speed. If you are going to dedicate that long to sparging, you may as well fly-sparge.

thegreatmaibockaddict said:

Um...U are best off getting the Papazian and reading about mashing, sparging, etc. That method that you used will allow all the undesirable stuff in the grain bed to be rinsed into the kettle for a very inferior brew.

The grain bed should be undisturbed during lautering, and the cloudy first runnings should be recirculated until clear.

I am not going to write a book as it has already been written....

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I disagree...Papazian utilized fly-sparging in his process, this guy is doing batch-sparging. Palmers book is a much better resource in this respect.

Rkoory said:

Mash for 30 min at 152 f
Recirculate and lauter, which usually takes about 15 min
Add sparge water, stir, and let sit for another 30 min
Recirculate and lauter again, about 15 min

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Actually, I don't see much unconventional about this, other than letting the sparge water sit in the MT for 30 minutes (unnecessary with batch sparging). You could save 30 minutes right there. In other words:

Mash 30 minutes (perfectly fine for the highly-modified malts we use today)

Recirculate (note you don't have to have it crystal clear; just enough to get the bits of grain husks out of the stream)....I only vorlauf 1-1.5 quarts and it takes a couple of minutes.

Collect first runnings in kettle;

Add Sparge water , mix like hell.

Vorlauf another 1-1.5 quarts, 1-2 minutes.

Open up the drain, drop Sparge/second runnings into kettle. Sparge again if you need to get to your pre-boil volume; add sparge, vorlauf, run into kettle

Start boil (actually you can do this after collecting first runnings, no reason you can't start heating them up).


I hope this helps.

BackAlley said:

If I'm reading you correctly, this sounds like a modified no sparge method. That would theoretically yield a lower efficiency. Also not sure what that buys you over a traditional no sparge other than you are mashing out.

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Considering he specifically mentions a sparge step, I don't know how you could consider this no-sparge.

Also, he isn't doing a mash-out as that would be added before he drains his first (i.e. mash) runnings.

+1 to what broadbill said. Everything about that method is pretty normal except that you're not mashing for the traditional length of time and you are letting your sparge sit longer than necessary. I agree that 30 minutes is enough time to get conversion (I still do 60 minutes though). Once you add the sparge water though (I'm assuming the sparge water is hotter than 170F?) nothing is really going on enzymatically speaking. All you're doing is rinsing off the sugars that have already been created during the mash so there's no need to let that sit longer than it takes to vourlaf.

broadbill said:

If you are batch sparging you aren't getting any advantage by draining real slow. The diffusion of sugars from grain to liquid occurs when you add the sparge water and mix. It isn't going to to change if you drain slow vs. fast.

Also, 30 minutes to get clear runnings? Maybe that is function of draining slow, but I usually get clear wort after running out about 1-1/2 quarts at about half-max drain speed (takes 1-2 minutes, tops). After that, I open it up full blast and put it into the BK.

I think you are missing a big advantage of batch sparging...speed. If you are going to dedicate that long to sparging, you may as well fly-sparge.

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20-30 min to drain tun fully. 10 min. To run clear

Also I disagree with the fast batch sparge. The diffusion does not happen instantly. The mash has time to continue to diffuse as the 168 f water slowly drains threw it. It is almost like a poor man fly sparge. I agree that I could mabe do it a little faster, but I got nothing but time. I'm not arguing with you and everyone has there own ways, but I have ran fast and slow and have had considerable difference in eff.

The way I currently do it, with fine tuning my grain crush, has been giving me consistent 76-82% mash eff. I just did an oat stout and got 80%

I could be totally wrong and it's something else giving me good mashes, but like I said, I got nothing but time.

Diffusion happens pretty quickly if you've stirred enough. If longer soak times increase yield or conversion in practice, it would suggest that your milling a bit too coarse or that you haven't achieved full conversion in the mash.

Terek said:

Also I disagree with the fast batch sparge. The diffusion does not happen instantly. The mash has time to continue to diffuse as the 168 f water slowly drains threw it. It is almost like a poor man fly sparge. I agree that I could mabe do it a little faster, but I got nothing but time. I'm not arguing with you and everyone has there own ways, but I have ran fast and slow and have had considerable difference in eff.

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Are you sure you aren't fly sparging?

There is no sparge water "draining through" with batch sparging. With batch sparging the water is mixed with grain, and the sugar concentration equilibrates between the grain and water during mixing. The runnings are then drained, with no further "washing" of the grains.

I'm glad your process works for you, but I think it is important not to muddy the waters too much with customized techniques since the OP is a beginner. I was actually surprised by how much misinformation he received off the bat from other posters who agreed with him that his technique was unconventional when in fact it was more or less standard batch sparging technique.

broadbill said:

Are you sure you aren't fly sparging?

There is no sparge water "draining through" with batch sparging. With batch sparging the water is mixed with grain, and the sugar concentration equilibrates between the grain and water during mixing. The runnings are then drained, with no further "washing" of the grains.

I'm glad your process works for you, but I think it is important not to muddy the waters too much with customized techniques since the OP is a beginner. I was actually surprised by how much misinformation he received off the bat from other posters who agreed with him that his technique was unconventional when in fact it was more or less standard batch sparging technique.

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True, it is basically a fly sparge. I apologize for getting off topic.

To the OP, what you are doing is a basic batch sparge. The only thing I would do diff. In ur situation is to let it sit for a full 60 min. Add your sparge water and mix really well, no need for it to sit again, just mix well and drain. You want it to sit undisturbed at whatever temp you chose for your body the full time amount

I think sometimes people mistakenly imagine that the sugars formed during mash are crystalized like cane sugar and need to be dissolved in hot water. Not true, they are already in solution when formed, so for batch sparging, you only need to agitate by stirring thoroughly and you can drain as quickly as possible. You can use cold water if you please, and letting it sit gains you nothing besides time to have a pint.

Just as others have said, you *might* be better off with a 60 minutes mash rest, and there is no need to wait 30 minutes after draining and adding sparge water. Stir it in well, let it settle a couple of minutes to help form a filter bed, and then start the vorlauf. I usually get pretty clear wort after about 1/5-2 quarts depending on the ingredients used. Then gently return that back to the top of the grain bed and let it filter through again.

The reason I highlighted the *might* on a 60 minute mash is that 30 minutes or so *might* already be just fine, depending on the ingredients used. If you *really* want to know if your mash is fully converted, see about picking up some iodine and doing a starch conversion test. I usually just do 60 minutes, but one of these days I'm going to buy some iodine and start checking my conversion times. if I can shave 30 minutes off the mash, I'd be thrilled!

Wow, that's a lot of great and fast feedback. Thanks to all.

Just to assuage any suspicion to the contrary, the mashing method that I outlined above was not developed by me in some attempt to be a brewing pioneer. Rather, it was just me screwing things up.

As for the literary references, I own both Papazian and Palmer. I tend to use Palmer more often than Papazian.

I guess the crooks of my original post was how am I screwing up my brewing/beer by using this method. Applying the adage "if its not broke don't fix it", all of the conventional ways by which I would consider evaluating my brewing process seem to indicate that my brewing method is not substantial different/worse than the more conventional 60 min batch sparge method. So in what ways am I screwing up my beer that I am not considering?

And yeah, I consider my method a batch sparge, not a modified fly sparger. The 15 min that I referred to initially is not for vorlofing alone, but lautering as well.

I have a lot to learn, and im willing to do it wrong if that means I learn something along the way.

I think the only thing that could mess up your beer is if you don't get full conversion during the 30 minute mash. This might happen with a low temperature mash. It's probably ok for most mashes though. But if you were to just cut your 30 minute sparge rest time out (because it's unnecessary) and increase your mash time to 60 minutes then you will end up with the same amount of total time that you have now. Or you could shave off 30 minutes if you don't feel like upping the mash time to 60 minutes. I personally mash for 60 minutes, but I don't feel like it's completely necessary.

As long as you are getting complete conversion, which affects your ability to hit your target gravity and ensures efficient use of the grain, your method would work fine. There isn't a quality impact that I can think of off the top of my head. Most people do a 60-90 minute rest simply to make sure they are getting completely conversion and getting the most fermentable sugars from the grain. Studies have shown that many people, depending on the ingredients, can get complete conversion done in as little as 30 minutes, or possibly even shorter. Grain crush has a lot to do with it, as well as mash temp and pH.

I've done lots of 20 and 30 min mashes with pretty good success. Fermentability seems to go down a little with shorter mash, so I started mashing a couple degrees cool when doing a shorter mash. I need to experiment more, but the beers I made have turned out pretty good.

broadbill said:

Considering he specifically mentions a sparge step, I don't know how you could consider this no-sparge.

Also, he isn't doing a mash-out as that would be added before he drains his first (i.e. mash) runnings.

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I think I saw recirc but missed the lauter. Sorry for the confusion.

masonsjax said:

I've done lots of 20 and 30 min mashes with pretty good success. Fermentability seems to go down a little with shorter mash, so I started mashing a couple degrees cool when doing a shorter mash. I need to experiment more, but the beers I made have turned out pretty good.

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As long as it turns out good, it doesn't matter how you do it. That is why people homebrew, so you can do what you want. Famous words: "off centered ales for off centered people"

When you start putting too many "rules" into brewing, it takes the fun and the point out of it. Do what you want, make what you want. As long as you are happy with the end result. And hey, if you mess up, barley vinaigrette is AWSOME in salad

If anyone tells you you "have" to do this or "have" to do that, just ignore them. They missed the point and should just go buy craft beer. The only thing you really "have" to do is make sure everything is clean, and even then, you don't have to have a brew room that is as clean as an operating theatre.

OP...Maybe, consider not to do the 30 minute rest at 170F thing. Here's the reason why: Starch, the grinder doesn't grind fine enough and starch that gets stuck in the husk will burst, going into solution. Enzymes are denatured by the high heat and won't convert the excess starch. The starch gets washed out and ends up down the line. Starch is one of the things that contributes to reducing the stability of beer and lessens shelf life. If you need to do a rest at 170F, make it 10 minutes. Other than that, sparge in any manner that makes you happy. Here is something to consider about mash out. The process developed in the decoction process. Where mash is boiled and starch is burst, before mash temp was raised to conversion temp. The process lessened starch carry over by giving enzymes more to work with. A mash out in the lautertun wasn't always used. It was an economy thing. To boil enough mash liquid to denature and raise the main mash to 170F took time and fuel. The brewmaster knew that enzymes are concentrated in the initial run off of the high gravity extract. Sparge water at a slightly higher temp than the mash was added. Soon as the bottom of the boiler was covered with extract it was fired. Enzymes were denatured in the boiler. A small amount of hops were immediately added to lessen the hot break. Hence, the true application of first wort hopping.... Don't worry about the dope part. It will go away with time and learning. Have fun, brew on!!!

i do a version of what OP does.

i hold my sach rest for 60 minutes. i then heat up my sparge water to whatever temp i need to change my strike water to 170. add that to the tun and let it settle back down for 20-30 minutes then recirculate. once it's clear i run it into my kettle.

Everyone's response to this thread has been great. I have learned a lot, and will definitely make some changes to my mashing process this weekend.

I'm slowly wrapping my mind around the relationships between time, temp, enzymes, and sugar.

So, one last question. What is an ideal mash-out temp range, and what is the peril of going too high. It sounds like about 170f is pretty standard, but what effect would 175f or 180 f have?

Rkoory said:

Everyone's response to this thread has been great. I have learned a lot, and will definitely make some changes to my mashing process this weekend.

I'm slowly wrapping my mind around the relationships between time, temp, enzymes, and sugar.

So, one last question. What is an ideal mash-out temp range, and what is the peril of going too high. It sounds like about 170f is pretty standard, but what effect would 175f or 180 f have?

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You want to be at 170 or above for the efficient denaturation of enzymes. Practically speaking, you probably won't get above 170-180 anyway...you can only heat water to 212 (boiling) and when you add it to the cooler mash is will drops into that range anyway.

I guess you could get the mash to a higher temp with more water, but then you cut into the volume you have available to sparge with. I gallon of near-boiling water as mash out should be plenty...

broadbill said:

You want to be at 170 or above for the efficient denaturation of enzymes. Practically speaking, you probably won't get above 170-180 anyway...you can only heat water to 212 (boiling) and when you add it to the cooler mash is will drops into that range anyway.

I guess you could get the mash to a higher temp with more water, but then you cut into the volume you have available to sparge with. I gallon of near-boiling water as mash out should be plenty...

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If you go above 170, the grain will release tannins, and give your beer off flavors.

Terek said:

If you go above 170, the grain will release tannins, and give your beer off flavors.

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If the mashout water is added to the mash before the lauter, then the pH of the mash will prevent tannin extraction. After you lauter and add sparge water, there may not be enough buffering acid left to counter the rise in pH from the sparge water. That's why they recommend not sparging above 170.

A lot of people don't bother with mashout at the homebrew scale, simply because the amount of time it takes to sparge isn't significant enough to modify the enzymatic activity. Especially with batch sparging when you could take the first runnings and start heating them up on the BK right away.

TBN had a podcast where they polled several big name homebrewers about their mashout and the only ones who did, only did mashout because it helped the lauter by heating the wort, making it flow better.

Agreed, you don't need to do a mashout when batch sparging.

I do something similar to the OP if I am looking to shave a few minutes off the brew day. It goes like this - mash at desired temp for 40-45 minutes, vorlauf, drain, then do a single batch sparge with water the SAME TEMP
that I mashed at. Between the stirring, vorlauf, and draining I get the remaining 15 minutes of the mash. Not a big time saver, but every minute helps. I have noticed no difference in doing this vs a 60 minute mash.

I'm over trying to finish brew asap. I have adopted the opposite approach. If all I do in a day is make beer I'm fine with it.