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Old 02-08-2014, 04:39 PM   #21
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I've done lots of 20 and 30 min mashes with pretty good success. Fermentability seems to go down a little with shorter mash, so I started mashing a couple degrees cool when doing a shorter mash. I need to experiment more, but the beers I made have turned out pretty good.
As long as it turns out good, it doesn't matter how you do it. That is why people homebrew, so you can do what you want. Famous words: "off centered ales for off centered people"

When you start putting too many "rules" into brewing, it takes the fun and the point out of it. Do what you want, make what you want. As long as you are happy with the end result. And hey, if you mess up, barley vinaigrette is AWSOME in salad

If anyone tells you you "have" to do this or "have" to do that, just ignore them. They missed the point and should just go buy craft beer. The only thing you really "have" to do is make sure everything is clean, and even then, you don't have to have a brew room that is as clean as an operating theatre.
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Old 02-09-2014, 05:00 AM   #22
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OP...Maybe, consider not to do the 30 minute rest at 170F thing. Here's the reason why: Starch, the grinder doesn't grind fine enough and starch that gets stuck in the husk will burst, going into solution. Enzymes are denatured by the high heat and won't convert the excess starch. The starch gets washed out and ends up down the line. Starch is one of the things that contributes to reducing the stability of beer and lessens shelf life. If you need to do a rest at 170F, make it 10 minutes. Other than that, sparge in any manner that makes you happy. Here is something to consider about mash out. The process developed in the decoction process. Where mash is boiled and starch is burst, before mash temp was raised to conversion temp. The process lessened starch carry over by giving enzymes more to work with. A mash out in the lautertun wasn't always used. It was an economy thing. To boil enough mash liquid to denature and raise the main mash to 170F took time and fuel. The brewmaster knew that enzymes are concentrated in the initial run off of the high gravity extract. Sparge water at a slightly higher temp than the mash was added. Soon as the bottom of the boiler was covered with extract it was fired. Enzymes were denatured in the boiler. A small amount of hops were immediately added to lessen the hot break. Hence, the true application of first wort hopping.... Don't worry about the dope part. It will go away with time and learning. Have fun, brew on!!!

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Old 02-09-2014, 06:50 PM   #23
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i do a version of what OP does.

i hold my sach rest for 60 minutes. i then heat up my sparge water to whatever temp i need to change my strike water to 170. add that to the tun and let it settle back down for 20-30 minutes then recirculate. once it's clear i run it into my kettle.

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Old 02-10-2014, 02:25 PM   #24
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Everyone's response to this thread has been great. I have learned a lot, and will definitely make some changes to my mashing process this weekend.

I'm slowly wrapping my mind around the relationships between time, temp, enzymes, and sugar.

So, one last question. What is an ideal mash-out temp range, and what is the peril of going too high. It sounds like about 170f is pretty standard, but what effect would 175f or 180 f have?

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Old 02-10-2014, 02:32 PM   #25
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Everyone's response to this thread has been great. I have learned a lot, and will definitely make some changes to my mashing process this weekend.

I'm slowly wrapping my mind around the relationships between time, temp, enzymes, and sugar.

So, one last question. What is an ideal mash-out temp range, and what is the peril of going too high. It sounds like about 170f is pretty standard, but what effect would 175f or 180 f have?

You want to be at 170 or above for the efficient denaturation of enzymes. Practically speaking, you probably won't get above 170-180 anyway...you can only heat water to 212 (boiling) and when you add it to the cooler mash is will drops into that range anyway.

I guess you could get the mash to a higher temp with more water, but then you cut into the volume you have available to sparge with. I gallon of near-boiling water as mash out should be plenty...
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Old 02-10-2014, 03:22 PM   #26
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You want to be at 170 or above for the efficient denaturation of enzymes. Practically speaking, you probably won't get above 170-180 anyway...you can only heat water to 212 (boiling) and when you add it to the cooler mash is will drops into that range anyway.

I guess you could get the mash to a higher temp with more water, but then you cut into the volume you have available to sparge with. I gallon of near-boiling water as mash out should be plenty...
If you go above 170, the grain will release tannins, and give your beer off flavors.
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Old 02-10-2014, 04:19 PM   #27
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If you go above 170, the grain will release tannins, and give your beer off flavors.
If the mashout water is added to the mash before the lauter, then the pH of the mash will prevent tannin extraction. After you lauter and add sparge water, there may not be enough buffering acid left to counter the rise in pH from the sparge water. That's why they recommend not sparging above 170.

A lot of people don't bother with mashout at the homebrew scale, simply because the amount of time it takes to sparge isn't significant enough to modify the enzymatic activity. Especially with batch sparging when you could take the first runnings and start heating them up on the BK right away.

TBN had a podcast where they polled several big name homebrewers about their mashout and the only ones who did, only did mashout because it helped the lauter by heating the wort, making it flow better.
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Old 02-11-2014, 03:25 AM   #28
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Agreed, you don't need to do a mashout when batch sparging.

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Old 02-12-2014, 05:23 PM   #29
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I do something similar to the OP if I am looking to shave a few minutes off the brew day. It goes like this - mash at desired temp for 40-45 minutes, vorlauf, drain, then do a single batch sparge with water the SAME TEMP
that I mashed at. Between the stirring, vorlauf, and draining I get the remaining 15 minutes of the mash. Not a big time saver, but every minute helps. I have noticed no difference in doing this vs a 60 minute mash.

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Old 02-12-2014, 07:02 PM   #30
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I'm over trying to finish brew asap. I have adopted the opposite approach. If all I do in a day is make beer I'm fine with it.

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