Uhhhh... did I just mash?

So last night I did a batch of beer, extract with specialty grains like I do. My steeping process is that I am heating up my boil volume with a thermometer in it, then at 150-160F I turn the burner off and dump in my crushed grains, wait a half hour, fish 'em out with a strainer, add my extract and get it boiling.

The beer I did last night was a 3 gal batch including about a half a pound of 2-row that I toasted in the oven for around 15min beforehand, and about a half pound of 40L crystal malt as specialty grains, along with 3 pounds of DME. I built the recipe in beersmith and it told me that my OG should be about 1.045, I got 1.050 (this after a small top-off getting me up to or slightly over 3 gal of wort). I don't think my hydrometer is off by that far, and I didn't add any other sugars aside from the extract, so I am thinking that maybe my toasting of the 2-row didn't remove all of it's diastatic power and my "steep" was actually functioning as a small (though probably inefficient) partial mash and that's where the extra sugar came from.

What do you guys think? Have I accidentally started grain brewing?

When you use specialty grains in conjunction with extract, that is commonly refered to as a partial mash. So yes, you have mashed!

This is a great method for extract brewers that are looking to change the flavor profiles of their extract. I started out just this way, first brewing only with extract, then moving on to partial mash and finally all-grain...

As for the discrepency with your hydrometer, are your sure you sample was chilled to the proper temperature (or did you adjust for temperature). Hydrometers are calibrated to a set temp, and if the sample isn't at that temp then you need to calculate an adjustment to get the correct reading. Mine has a themometer built in, so the adjustment is really easy.

Re: hydrometer question:

Yes I had the wort cooled to about 65* or 70* F, which (I think) should allow me to read directly off the hydrometer. I am pretty sure hydrometers more or less are built to read right at around 60*F -- would the 5 or 10 degrees make that much difference?

When you use specialty grains in conjunction with extract, that is commonly refered to as a partial mash. So yes, you have mashed!

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Not quite. If you are just using specialty grains, you are just extracting flavor and color and the bulk of your fermentables are coming from extract. The crystal is most unfermentable sugars, adding sweetness. In a partial mash, a significant portion of your fermentables are coming from the conversion of a base malt like 2-row. Because the OP included 2-row, a mash was accomplished. I know it's a semantic issue, but there is a difference.

1 pound of grain isn't likely to give you much additional gravity points and it really depends on how much water it was "mashed" in. If you used anymore than 2 quarts, the enzymes were likely too diluted to do any real conversion for you. If it was 2 quarts or less, the most you'd pull out of the grain in 3 gallons would be 1.005. It could be that's why you measured the increased gravity or it could be a slight deviation in measured volume and/or a hydrometer temp correction issue.

The steep was in 3 gal of water so it looks like there must be a measurement issue someplace, completely possible between the volume measurement (taken just by seeing what line on the ale pail it came up to) and the hydrometer. This gives me confidence for moving towards a partial mash in the future soon, though!

Here's hoping the beer will be good regardless! I switched to all DME from LME and did a late extract addition, and am using a temperature controlled ferment (aquarium heater + water bath) to make sure my yeast doesn't floc out on a cold night in the basement which I think has been an issue. So we are hoping for some clean-tasting extract brew!

flyangler18 said:

Not quite.

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BYO - Beer the Partial-Mash Way

Padstack,

I think you are missing a key point. While steeping and mashing are nearly identical processes, it is the inclusion of a base malt that really differentiates the two. Specialty grains like crystal and chocolate are already converted, and the steeping process extracts some unfermentable sugars and flavor. As you know, mashing needs closer attention to temperature for the activation of enzymes from the base malts like Pilsner, Maris Otter, Munich, etc.

Let's not get too off topic though.

Bobby_M said:

1 pound of grain isn't likely to give you much additional gravity points and it really depends on how much water it was "mashed" in. If you used anymore than 2 quarts, the enzymes were likely too diluted to do any real conversion for you. If it was 2 quarts or less, the most you'd pull out of the grain in 3 gallons would be 1.005. It could be that's why you measured the increased gravity or it could be a slight deviation in measured volume and/or a hydrometer temp correction issue.

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That's why I voted "no". Your techique was fine for mashing, sort of. You should match the amount of specialty grains to the amount of base malt. So, if you have say 2 pounds of specialty grains, you just add two pounds of 2-row. To that total (4 pounds of grain), you would add 5-6 QUARTS of water at 153 or so. Steep (mash) that for 45 minutes, and then rinse with up to 2 gallons of 170 degree water. THAT is a mash. You got a few points out of the two-row, but you'd be better with a much smaller volume of mash water.

Thanks for your help guys. What I am learning from this is that even though my steeping method is similar to mini-mashing, and I was using some base malt, the fact that I used as much water as I did probably prevented much enzymatic conversion from occurring, which is fine, because I actually wasn't trying to mash in the first place and only became curious when I had the high hydrometer reading and was wondering where the extra sugar might be coming from. In any case it fermented out very well and the hydrometer sample tasted great!

Hydrometer reading at 70 degrees, this means your measured of 1050 is actually 1051. The thing though with taking a reading with an extract brew is getting it mixed up well after the top-up water.

Steeping:
-no base grains
-various amounts of water
-temperature ranges from cold steep to "remove before boil"
-extracts flavor and color

Mashing:
-base grains with enough diastatic power to convert the other grains as well
-specific amounts of water, usually ranging 1.0-2.0 quarts per pound of grain
-specific and consistent temperature range, usually somewhere between 145-160°F
-extracts fermentable sugars as well as color and flavor

i would not count on an extract reading to be perfectly accurate, it has to be thoroughly mixed and the exact volume you are looking for.

counting on recipes is not always perfect, either, as they have different method.

i don't know that that 2-row would still convert after being kilned. it probably still had some enzymes left and you may have gotten a small amount of conversion.

no matter what, you're close enough...hope it's a great beer!

I voted no...but you are so close I think you should give a partial mash recipe a shot. I think you'll like it.

BigKahuna said:

I voted no...but you are so close I think you should give a partial mash recipe a shot. I think you'll like it.

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I am on that wavelength too -- I have been intentionally avoiding grain brewing for a while here due to the fact I know I will be moving soon. So I have been trying to develop my extract process to brew the best beer the easiest. However, I think sheer curiousity will soon lead me to rummage through all the stuff in the house and see how things look for coming up with a serviceable partial mash setup (I think the main thing is finding a second pot big enough... we are low on big pots...).

Unfortunately this will likely require additional hours (and hours) sitting around looking through old hbt threads... which is fun, but will probably not get me any closer to graduating (graduating is a good idea because I have a job lined up that will help me pay for an AG setup, but they won't let me start without a diploma).

I'm kinda in the same boat - by buddy and I did a partial and accidental mash last night! We didn't take gravity readings, but after steeping, before adding any syrup or DME, we had a boil-over!!! We weren't even watching for it cause we had just gotten up to a boil after steeping for 25min.

Here's what was in our grain bag:
1/4lb chocolate
1/4lb biscuit
1/4lb special b
1/4lb special roat
1lb flaked oatmeal

we steeped x25min, weren't really paying close attention to temp (but it did sit at 160-ish for about 15-20min), removed the bag, went to boil and BAM! ... and this was all in a full 5 gallons of water.

any theories?? i'm a little confused that we actually achieved any significant sugar extraction, based on the sheer volume alone (5 gallons to 2lb). was it the oatmeal?

(sorry to hijack, but this is related, right?)

WheeledGoat said:

Here's what was in our grain bag:
1/4lb chocolate
1/4lb biscuit
1/4lb special b
1/4lb special roat
1lb flaked oatmeal


any theories?? i'm a little confused that we actually achieved any significant sugar extraction, based on the sheer volume alone (5 gallons to 2lb). was it the oatmeal?

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You had NO sugar extraction with that recipe. That's not a partial mash. That's an extract recipe with those steeping grains.

The whole definition of a mash is extracting sugars (maltose primarily) from the starches in basemalt by converting them. Steeping grains give color, flavor, aroma, and you'll get head retention from that oatmeal. You will get NO fermentable sugars.

Why do you think you did a mash? Did you get a much higher than expected FG? The boil over? I've had boil overs making spaghetti due to the starches, but it wasn't because of a mash.

that's not a mash. there are no base malts.

your boilover is due to simply too much heat.

oh! i'm glad i posted and asked, then!!

i was working off the assumption that the boil-over was because we had extracted sugars. DUH - of course that's not necessary! The spaghetti thing!!

i think we jumped to that conclusion because we were so surprised by the dark color of the 5 gallons just after steeping... Plus we were thinking "mash" because I had just finished doing my first PM right before starting his batch. (1/2lb biscuit, 1lb wheat & 1lb german 2 row in 15cups (1.5qt:1lb) @ 150F x30min, dip sparged in another 15cups @ 170F).

I'm still a little fuzzy on which grains are specialty (i.e. no fermentable sugars) vs. base malts. I've been going by recipies and trusting my local BrewShop so far. I've still got a lot of reading and learning to do. This was my friend's recipe that he pieced together with the help of a local BrewShop.

Thanks for your help in understanding this!!

Oh, and Death: your tutorial is what inspired me to try my first PM - thanks a TON for that! You rock! :rockin: (you cut that hair yet? )

base malts (that contain the enzymes necessary and have "diastatic power") are necessary for a mash. specialty malts are generally kilned to the point where all the enzymes are dead or go through a different process. base malts also allow you to use unmalted grains and adjuncts and still get conversion.

look here for briess base malts:
Briess Malt & Ingredients Co.: Base Malts

and more base malts here:
Briess Malt & Ingredients Co.: High Temp Kilned Malts

DP = Diastatic Power

2-row (pale malt): standard base malt (DP 140. Base malt for all beer styles. Smoother, less grainy flavor than 6-Row Brewers Malt. Slightly higher yield than 6-Row Brewers Malt. Slightly lower protein than 6-Row Brewers Malt.)

6-row: grainier, high conversion (DP 160. Base malt for all beer styles. More husk than 2-Row Brewers Malt. Well suited for high adjunct brewing.)

Pilsner: for lighter beers (DP 130. Exceptionally light-colored, 2-Row base malt. Produces very clear, crisp wort which makes it an excellent base malt for lager beers. Suitable for all beer styles.)

Munich: high temp kilned malt. only has enough DP to convert itself (DP 40. 2-Row Munich-style malt. This European-style malt is a full, rich-flavored malt for a clean, malty flavor. )

Wheat and Rye: also contain the enzymes necessary for conversion

White Wheat (DP 160. Imparts malty flavor not obtainable from raw wheat. Use with rice hulls to improve lautering and help prevent stuck mash. Use 5% for head retention in any style. Use as part or all of base malt in wheat beers.)

Dude, awesome. What a great post to help people like me! Thanks for taking the time. I just clicked on the "thumbs up" button like 4 times...

WheeledGoat said:

Dude, awesome. What a great post to help people like me! Thanks for taking the time. I just clicked on the "thumbs up" button like 4 times...

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Glad you liked it. If and when I finally get around to doing a partial mash, I will post my method with pics for others to see.

Maybe we should make a sticky or wiki on the difference between mashing and steeping -- there seem to be lots of questions about it and information spread all over the place.

Maybe we should make a sticky or wiki on the difference between mashing and steeping -- there seem to be lots of questions about it and information spread all over the place.

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We have one right here

WheeledGoat said:

you cut that hair yet?

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NEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

flyangler18 said:

We have one right here

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This link just takes me to the main wikki entry on "beer." I read the wikki on extract/steeping and partial-mash processes and it didn't look like it had the kind of information people seem to be looking for. Maybe I am missing something, but then again maybe the answer to a commonly asked question should be central and easy to find?

Thoughts are encouraged and welcomed from all!