Overly bitter APA's - help me with mash pH

I recently started brewing AG (BIAB) and my first two attempts at Pale Ales have both turned out overly bitter. After doing a lot of research, my problem may stem from improper pH levels. My first one was a SMASH Maris otter/cascade 5 gal batch which I mashed in about 5 gal of water and then attempted to sparge in a much smaller pot with the remainder of the water I needed. The second batch I decided to just mash in the full volume of water (4 gallons of water for my 2.5 gal batch) using EdWorts Pale Ale recipe (Scaled by half, approximately). Both beers turned out overly bitter. I've since made a lot of adjustments in my process to dial everything in, but I feel like I still may have an issue with my mash pH, due to research found in Brewing CLassic Styles by Jamil, and a HBT thread re: BYO article pertaining to no sparge brewing (no link at this time). To make a long story short, what I am interested in knowing is: A) What can I do to control the mash pH to stay within the "Acceptable" range per style? B) Is there anything about BIAB or mashing that I should know that might make a significant impact on the pH?

Two things I should point out is that on the first APA I was using tap water, and the second I was using Hinckley Springs spring water, and both produced similar results....and I was using a floating thermometer for both batches and have since upgraded to a digital probe thermometer so I can keep track or temps more accurately.

PS For the purposes of this thread, I'd like to stay focused on pH for the most part, and not go off on any tangents about anything else in my process. Although if you feel that there is something other than pH that absolutely must be pointed out, please feel free to bring it up. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. :fro:

EDIT: I also should add that I have time to go to the LHBS later today if I need to pick anything up, but I dont have the budget for a pH meter yet. Is that something that is necessary to buy eventually? Or can you get by without one?

Umm, without knowing your pH, it will be difficult to know how to adjust it. If you don't want to buy a meter yet, at least pick up some pH test strips that are in the beer range of pH (don't get the ones that go from 1-13, far too broad). Try and get ones where most of the colors are between 5 and 6.

Second, you need to get a water report if you intend to use any tap water. Specifically you are looking for info on calcium, magnesium, bicarbonates (alkalinity), chroride, sodium, and sulfate. If you have high sulfates, that can cause excessive bitterness. Once you have this information, you plug the numbers into a brew water calculator. And then play with gypsum or lactic acid additions and vary the dilution rates with Reverse Osmosis water.

Should I assume Hinckley Springs spring water is ok to brew with? Is there any way to find a report on that water online? I dont see one with a search. I know its tough to give me help with the pH issue without knowing what the pH is already, but I dont have a method of testing it at the moment and was really just curious if there is anything I can be doing to make the situation better. For example, if my floating thermometer was giving incorrect readings and I was mashing at the wrong temp could that affect the pH? Im really just looking for troubleshooting steps to incorporate into my process that dont involve buying anything. If I didnt get full conversion, how would that affect anything? Also, if i had a pH problem in my APA's, will the same issue cause off-flavors in a Hefewiezen, assuming the acidity is too high in my mash? I'd like to go ahead and brew the Hefe but if its going to get screwed up I may hold off until I can get something to test and fix the mash.

The grist and water will determine the pH of the mash. Darkly roasted malts lower pH more than lightly kilned ones. The answer to your question is that you can't accurately adjust a value that is unknown. You need to know what's in your water and the buffering capacity (I think that's the right term) of the recipe's grist. If you want to know the actual pH of the mash it must be measured, preferably with a meter. The strips are bit off and sometimes hard to read. That being said, I have no idea if mash pH is your problem. You may find that your wateris high in sulfate and that's increasing the perception of bitterness. You should also make sure your using the same bitterness scale as the recipe (ie Tinseth, Rager, etc).

Ok, thanks. There were a couple other kinks in my process that I ironed out, so I will try to brew this Hefe with those changes and leave the water as is for now. If this one still turns out tasting bad I will look into getting a pH meter to test my water/mash in the future. If anyone has any other info to offer, please feel free to post.

You need a water report to do it accurately.....but.....

I would try this if you are set on brewing before you get one. Get 5 gallons of RO water from one of those machines at walmart or wherever. Mix in 1 to 2 gallons of you tap water depending on needs. Buy calcium chloride, gypsum, and epson salt (epson from grocery store). Than I would download EZ water calculator and adjust the values to what you need with the salt additions. You could attempt to guess on the water profile of your tap to make it a little more accurate but if its only 10 to 20 percent it won't be to far off for flavors. I would use at least a gallon of tap for the trace minerals.

I just moved and don't know my new water profile yet so that what I am doing. Good luck.

I had that same overely harsh bitterness on my first few APA and ipa's. I'm not sure if it was due to PH or chloride to sulfate ratios. But when I used the water sheet and corrected things to mostly in range, beers started turning out a lot better.

You certainly could do as captainL said. Then use the baseline water from the Water Primer in the brewing science section of HBT. I prefer Brun' Water but thats up to you to decide which software you prefer. There are recommendations there for water to brew a hefe. It wouldn't answer your tap water questions but it may prove your theory or point to another issue.

Thanks guys, those posts are extremely helpful

Look at the basics first. What was your starting gravity of the wort? How did it compare to the recipe's SG? How did you measure your hop additions? Did the recipe have IBU targets for each hopping addition? What formula did you use in assessing the amount of your hops (with their individual alpha ratings) that you added to your brew? Finally, what was the final gravity of the beers and how did those gravities compare to the recipe's information?

The Tinseth bittering formula is the most accurate formula. The unfortunate consequence of using that formula is that it tends to produce overly bittered beers when the original recipe was formulated using the Rager formula. As Jamil recommends, use the bittering formula you are most comfortable with. In general, they are all similar. I use the Rager formula, because when you are evaluating recipes, they are more often formulated with Rager and I find that I can better duplicate their results by using it.

All of these factors need to be checked first. Water is the last thing you want to be messing with. Keep the water as simple as possible until you're positive that its the source of your problems. If you're in an area with low alkalinity water, brew lighter colored beers for now. The same advice applies if you use RO or distilled water. If your water supply has high alkalinity, brew darker beers for now. But don't blindly assume that your brewing water is the source of bittering problems.

1. Get brewing water software. It's free and helps you get a proper water profile and mash pH.

2. Get a water profile. If your water is unsuitable for brewing (i.e. too hard), use distilled or RO (RO is cheap). Adjust with brewing salts as necessary. They're cheap as well.

maybe your using too many hops...have you altered your recipe yet

osagedr said:

1. Get brewing water software. It's free and helps you get a proper water profile and mash pH.

2. Get a water profile. If your water is unsuitable for brewing (i.e. too hard), use distilled or RO (RO is cheap). Adjust with brewing salts as necessary. They're cheap as well.

Click to expand...

Fixed that for you.

1. Get a water profile. It costs $16 and you'll get results within a week.

2. Enter the newly acquired water analysis data into the free brewing water software.

I know I'm repeating myself and others, but you can't expect software to develop reliable results when the input data is guesswork. First things first, actually measure your mash pH and get a current water analysis then start to work on the water.