Mash temp thought

Earlier I was reading john palmers how to brew and was reading about how mash temp determines not only types of sugar that is created but the quantity.

It was saying that lower mash temps create thicker wort with less fermentable sugar but this improves the body of the beer.

I know that the average mash time is between 30 and 90 minutes but what if you left your mash for say 12 hours starting at 150F. Would this not slowly drop in temp and go though all of the different temperatures releasing all of the sugars ? Or would this not work ?

Has anyone tried it ? Any responses will he great fully received

Justin

Backwards. Lower mash temps and more time make a more fermentable wort. Less fermentable sugars are produced at higher temperatures in a shorter time.

And no, beta enzymes are denatured at higher temperatures, so starting high and reducing the temperature will still produce a less fermentable wort.


Here's a reference:

There are two different types of enzymes in the malted barley: alpha-amylase and beta-amylase. The alpha enzymes break up the long chains of starches by splitting them in half. The beta enzymes break down the starches by chopping them off a couple at a time from the ends of the chain. Only if these two enzymes work together can the conversion be accomplished in a reasonable amount of time. There is a catch though: The alpha enzymes are most active at 149 to 153 F (65 to 67 C), and the beta enzymes are most active at 126 to 144 F (52 to 62 C). So the temperature and duration of the mash must be carefully controlled to get a good conversion.

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Something like this then?

A popular multi-rest mash schedule is the 40°C - 60°C - 70°C (104 - 140 - 158°F) mash, using a half hour rest at each temperature, first advocated for homebrewers by George Fix. This mash schedule produces high yields and good fermentability. The time at 40°C improves the liquefaction of the mash and promotes enzyme activity. As can be seen in Figure 79 - Enzyme Ranges, several enzymes are at work, liquefying the mash and breaking down the starchy endosperm so the starches can dissolve. As mentioned in the previous chapter in the section on the Acid Rest, resting the mash at this temperature has been show to improve the yield, regardless of the malts used. Varying the times spent at the 60 and 70°C rests allows you to adjust the fermentable sugar profiles. For example, a 20 minute rest at 60°C, combined with a 40 minute rest at 70°C produces a sweet, heavy, dextrinous beer; while switching the times at those temperatures would produce a drier, lighter bodied, more alcoholic beer from the same grain bill.

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brewmcq said:

Something like this then?

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Yeah but I was wondering if it could be done in reverse instead of warming it up start hight and let it slowly cool but it seems it cannot be done that way around.

scorpien222 said:

Yeah but I was wondering if it could be done in reverse instead of warming it up start hight and let it slowly cool but it seems it cannot be done that way around.

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You have to understand that the enzymes in the mash are denatured as the temperature rises.

Denatured basically means that the enzymes are rendered inert or useless. So starting at a high temperature will just denature all the enzymes and as you go down in temperature, the enzymes normally used at those temperature rests won't be able to work as they normally would in a traditional mash.

150 wouldn't denature much no?

True. Starting at 150 degrees and dropping over a 12 hour period will give him a very dry, thin beer lacking body.

AnOldUR said:

True. Starting at 150 degrees and dropping over a 12 hour period will give him a very dry, thin beer lacking body.

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What temp would you recommend starting at ?

I would recommend allowing the mash temperature to drop as little as possible. If you want to take advantage of the differnet enzymes, start with a lower temperature rest and go up. You can do this with some form of heat or by infusing the mash with boiling water.

It would seem the beta rely on the alpha to break down long chain proteins, so letting the alpha (higher temp) go first and then the beta finish off would seem like even more beta conversion would take place. While long chain protein of unfermentable dextrins would create body and supposed thicker mouthfeel, the orginal post asked about which would release the most sugars. Would it make more sense that lowering the mash temp from 152 down to 145 over time would create the most sugar? certainly the most fermentable sugars, but what about sugar in general?

grathan said:

It would seem the beta rely on the alpha to break down long chain proteins, so letting the alpha (higher temp) go first and then the beta finish off would seem like even more beta conversion would take place. While long chain protein of unfermentable dextrins would create body and supposed thicker mouthfeel, the orginal post asked about which would release the most sugars. Would it make more sense that lowering the mash temp from 152 down to 145 over time would create the most sugar? certainly the most fermentable sugars, but what about sugar in general?

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Hi graham

I have been looking in to this a little more and from what I have read and what has been posted the impression I get is as soon as the temp goes above the preferred temp of the beta (lower temp) they become inert and do not do their job so you have to start at a lower temp and let them do their job first and then raise the temp with infusions (post term for pouring boiling water in to your mash) to allow the alphas (higher temp enzymes) to do their job.

If you have brewing software it calculates for you the amount of boiling water needed to raise the temp to the desired target.

I am going to brew tonight my first all grain batch I think im going to go with a 1 step infusion starting with a temp of 120F or 49C an then raise to 150F or 66C.

If I have got any of the above wrong can someone please correct me as this is how I understand it at this time and and any suggestions on my infusion will be great fully received as I said it's my first attempt at an all grain

What kind of base malt are you using? A german pilsner malt that's not highly modified would benefit from a 121-127 degree rest. A highly modified malt would still benefit from a 131 degree rest. We proved this last weekend as our efficiency went from 83% to 87%. The only difference was the protien rest. Greg Noonan speaks of this in his book. I've had several local home brewers tell me we are wasting our time doing protien rest but we have proved them wrong.

scorpien222 said:

Hi graham

I have been looking in to this a little more and from what I have read and what has been posted the impression I get is as soon as the temp goes above the preferred temp of the beta (lower temp) they become inert and do not do their job so you have to start at a lower temp and let them do their job first and then raise the temp with infusions (post term for pouring boiling water in to your mash) to allow the alphas (higher temp enzymes) to do their job.

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This is not entirely right. At any reasonable mash temps, you are not going to really denature the beta. It will be less active, but it can become more active if you let the temps fall. To be sure that you had denatured the alpha and beta, you need to raise the temps to about 168 degrees and hold them there. That is why people do a mash out. Part of the reason you do a mash out is to prevent the the betas from chopping up the big sugars as the temps drop during sparging. Without a mash out, it is possible that the beer will end up thinner than you want.

Also, your description of allowing the betas work first so that the alphas can do there work later is not right. Alphas can go to work on anything. They just start randomly chopping starch chains. They don't need the betas to have done some work first. If you want a full mouth feel, you should not to a sac. (not gonna try to spell that one) rest in the beta range. You should go straight to an alpha temp (e.g., 156).

grathan said:

It would seem the beta rely on the alpha to break down long chain proteins, so letting the alpha (higher temp) go first and then the beta finish off would seem like even more beta conversion would take place. While long chain protein of unfermentable dextrins would create body and supposed thicker mouthfeel, the orginal post asked about which would release the most sugars. Would it make more sense that lowering the mash temp from 152 down to 145 over time would create the most sugar? certainly the most fermentable sugars, but what about sugar in general?

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Nope. Betas start at the end of a chain and break off a single sugar chain at a time (this is the fermentable sugar). But the beta can only work until it gets within three sugar chains together. If you let the mash sit in a beta range for the whole time, the beta will just munch away breaking fermentable sugars off one at a time until it can't work any more.

Alphas work randomly cutting anywhere on the chain. The result is that you may end up with more chains that are too long to ferment but that can't be attached by the beta. So starting high and then lowering it will not end up with a more fermentable wort than just mashing low the whole time.

rklinck said:

This is not entirely right. At any reasonable mash temps, you are not going to really denature the beta.

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Beta's denature at 158 and although not common it is not unreasonable to mash this high if you're looking for a really full bodied beer.

.

AnOldUR said:

Beta's denature at 158 and although not common it is not unreasonable to mash this high if you're looking for a really full bodied beer.

.

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Agreed. But I doubt anyone who is looking for a really full bodied beer would be thinking about starting it at 158 and then letting it drop through multiple temps over 12 hours.

rklinck said:

Agreed. But I doubt anyone who is looking for a really full bodied beer would be thinking about starting it at 158 and then letting it drop through multiple temps over 12 hours.

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But would this work ? Or can you only get the alphas and the betas working efficiently to give plenty of ferment able sugar but also a good body to the beer ?

Oh and I apologize if I'm sounding like an idiot but I'm just trying to get my head round it properly

scorpien222 said:

But would this work ? Or can you only get the alphas and the betas working efficiently to give plenty of ferment able sugar but also a good body to the beer ?

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No, it wouldn't work.

Well, it would "work" in the sense that fermentable sugars would result, but since the betas would continue to break up the long-chained sugars, you would end up with a thinner drier beer than simply mashing at 158 (conversion will happen in as little as 15-20 minutes at that temp) and mashing out and boiling.

For a full bodied beer with lots of dextrines, mash "higher, shorter"- a higher temperature mash just until conversion is reached. For a very light bodied, crisp beer, mash "cooler, longer". A long mash at 147 will give a crisp, thin, dry result.

Many of us mash at 152 or so, sort of the "sweet spot" between those two extremes.

I've done a LOT of research on step-mashing, etc., and yeah, the general consensus is to just mash at 152-ish, unless you're using a lot of adjuncts.

I typically have been mashing at 154 or so for 90 minutes with great results. I'm going to run my next batch of Irish red a little lower, prolly 150-152 since my last batch was a little warm during the mash and it's almost like drinking cough syrup.

scorpien222 said:

But would this work ? Or can you only get the alphas and the betas working efficiently to give plenty of ferment able sugar but also a good body to the beer ?

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I think you are confusing two concepts here. The first concept is conversion from starch to sugar. You can get complete (or essentially complete) conversion regarldless of the temp. At high temp, this happens faster so as Yooper said, you could get complete conversion within 15-20 minutes. At lower temp, you can still get the same level of conversion, but it will take longer.

The second concept is fermentable vs. unfermentable sugar. Lower mash temps lead to a higher percentage of fermentable sugar (and a lower FG). Higher mash temps result in a lower percentage of fermentable sugar (and a higher FG). The ratio of fermentable to unfermentable affects the body of the beer. A beer that has a high percentage of fermentable sugar will have a thinner mouthfeel (all else being equal). So, if you mash at a high temp, you will get a fuller mouthfeel but you also will get less less fermentable sugar.

Now, if you want a beer that ferments out more but still has a thicker mouthfeel, you can add some wheat or flaked barley. These end up giving a beer a fuller mouthfeel. I could be wrong on this (I'm guessing Yooper or someone else will correct me), but I think this is because you end up with more protein.

rklinck said:

Nope. Betas start at the end of a chain and break off a single sugar chain at a time (this is the fermentable sugar). But the beta can only work until it gets within three sugar chains together. If you let the mash sit in a beta range for the whole time, the beta will just munch away breaking fermentable sugars off one at a time until it can't work any more.

Alphas work randomly cutting anywhere on the chain.

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If beta leave 3 links, cannot the alpha break this remaining chain? And if so, cannot the beta then reduce the remaining bits left by the alpha?

Sure, that's why a lot of brewers mash in the 152 degree range. Both enzymes can work together. But as rklinck said, the OP should not confuse mash efficiency with wort fermentability and the resulting body of the beer created.

AnOldUR said:

Sure, that's why a lot of brewers mash in the 152 degree range. Both enzymes can work together. But as rklinck said, the OP should not confuse mash efficiency with wort fermentability and the resulting body of the beer created.

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And you will get the most fermentable wort by mashing low the entire time. There is no reason to mash high, then low. I guess that would lead to a wort that is somewhere in between a high and low mash, but you can get the same results by mashing in the middle the whole time.