Easy 80% efficiency in 500 sq ft

Anyone want to switch to all grain but live in a no bedroom apartment and don't care to or have the money to have 2 bedrooms full of brew equipment? Also, if your reason to switch to all grain is because you love calculus and must "hit the number" every time, then this post may not be for you. I've written this post for the home brewer who enjoys making beer as a fun hobby, not as a disciplined science. Nothing against the mad scientist brewers(some are good friends and make amazing beers) it's just not me. I like to keep it cheap, simple and fun. Below I've taken a little from all the different types of "simple" all grain instructions listed on this forum(my favorite) and a few from others and developed what I like to think of as the "simplest" all grain brewing while maintaining at least 80% mash efficiency.
--Let's do this...

1st... Equipment needed...
-basic brew kit with bottling bucket
-thermometer
-20qt pot
-16qt pot

2nd... Equipment NOT needed...
-mash tun
-lauter tun
-turkey fry propane burner
-10 gallon pot
-ability to boil 6+ gallons of water
-wort chiller
-measuring devices
-strike water
-PH tests
-calculator
-PHD in chemistry

3rd... Mash!!!
(I'm going to get hammered by the vets on here but here we go...)
-Take your dry, crushed grains and dump them directly into your empty 20qt pot.(no grain bags etc. needed)
-Put this pot in your sink and fill it with warm/hot (who cares what temperature) tap water(if drinkable) until the water level is roughly an inch or two above the top of the grains. (this is your mash tun.)
-Put your pot filled with luke warm soupy grains on the stove, clip your thermometer on the side and turn on medium/high heat. (no strike water needed.)
-STIR CONSTANTLY until your soupy grains reach 155d (+-5d)
-Remove from heat and monitor temp/stir about every 10 to 15 minutes adding heat if needed for a total on one hour. (more of a step infusion mash)
-Meanwhile, take your empty 16qt pot and fill it nearly full with water and heat on stove to 170d (+-5d)
-(optional) Take a sip of your mash at the beginning and end of the hour to notice sugar conversion!

4th... Sparge!!!
(I'm going to get hammered by the vets on here again but here we go...)
-Place bottling bucket on counter top and insert a paint strainer/sparge bag etc. of some kind inside the bucket and cloths pin/clamp the bag around the top of the bucket(difficult and possibly messy with very tall bottling buckets, make sure bag is secure to top or have a buddy hold it!)(this is your lauter tun)
-Pour your soupy(now sugary) grains into your bottling bucket.(don't make a mess)
-Rinse out your 20qt pot and place it on ground below bottling bucket.
-Attach one end of your siphoning hose to your bottling bucket spigot, place the other end in your 20qt pot and open the valve on your bottling bucket to roughly half flow.
-Your sweetness should begin to flow into your pot. If not, your heavy bag of grain has most likely clogged your valve. Easy fix!!... Gently pull your grain bag up and away from the opening to the valve, take a large spoon such as a typical brew stick or ladle(must be spoon shaped) and place it over the opening to the valve and let your bag rest on the back side of the ladle. This will hold the ladle in place over the opening, freeing up your hands. This almost always fixes any clogging issues.
-Take your 16qt pot of roughly 170d water off the stove and slowly pour it evenly over your grains at about the same rate as your half open valve is releasing the sweetness into your 20qt pot. This should not be rushed but there's no need to spend hours sprinkling tiny drops of water over your grains either. 5 to 15 minutes of slowly sparging will be quite sufficient.
-Slowly sparge until you run out of sparge water or your 20qt pot is nearly full then turn your valve off and set your bottling bucket aside.

Last... Back to normal brewing...
-Now this will only leave you with 3 or 4 gallons of wort and you're thinking... "I've always been told you have to boil 6 plus gallons of water in a huge pot right?"
-No, now you simply boil your 3-4 gallons of "extract", concentrated, high gravity wort that you've just created and follow your hopping schedule as normal.
-When you're done with your boil, simply chill your wort, aerate into your fermenter, add water as needed to make 5 gallons, take a gravity reading, then pitch your yeast.
-That's it. Not scientific by no means but will consistently provide you with efficiency greater than 80% in just a few hours with minimal equipment investment. Hope this helps some of you that are hesitant on all grain brewing. Happy brewing!

Interesting concept, but I fear many on here will pick this method apart. If you're happy with your brew and you enjoy it, brew on my friend, and forget the naysayers.

I really like the concept of this. im interested in seeing the responses.

This is (almost) exactly the same way I just did my partial mash. I mashed in a grain bag and just lifted it out of the brew kettle and sat it in a colander (barely fit) and sparged from there.

More power to you if it works for you.

This is how I do my Partials, sorta...

- I heat 1.25qts water per Pound of grain to 165ish in a 16qt Aluminum pot.
- Add grains and mash for 60 min @ 154*
- Heat 1.25qts of water per pound to 165-170* (Sparge water)
- I then take a LARGE Colander which fits on my 20qt brew kettle perfectly and stretch a large muslin bag over it.
- With a small hand screen/scoop, I scoop out the grains and put them in the colander.
- Place the pot on the burner and crank the heat.
- Pour the Wort over the grains, followed by the sparge water. Let sit to drain for 10-12 min.

I've mashed this way twice now and have hit 75%+ both times.

It would take me >90 minutes to get the water for a 14# grainbill to 155F on my gas range. Stirring for that long is not simple in my estimation. Good idea though. I'm glad I have space for my extra equipment.

I have a hard time believing that someone with a PHD in chemistry wouldn't be precise

Not to be a hater, but wouldn't it make just as much sense for you to do brew in a bag? Seems like that could save you some mess from both spillage (from pouring into your lauter tun) and from having to clean the grains out of your brew kettle.

At any rate, brew on. I was just offering a little (potentially?) helpful advice!

I don't think it sounds like a bad method but I'm skeptical about the 80% efficiency.

This is kinda like what I do, except I pour my mash into a Zapap bucket system so it has a false bottom. This puts all of the grain "above" the spigot so that the spigot is always draining the most concentrated wort.

Usually I get about 75% efficiency with my usual 1.060 batches with about 13# of grain. If I do a recipe with less grain (like 10#) I've gotten efficiency in the upper 80s so maybe your method works with smaller amounts of grain?

Hey whatever works for you. It's your beer.

Personally I put the grains in the bag before I mash instead of after.

Other than that your process is not really that different just a few more steps.

And for the record I hit between 88 and 92 % efficiency so 80% is easily achievable

Cheers

Isn't something like 90% efficiency theoretically impossible?

edit: From Palmer - " Under laboratory conditions, each grain will yield a typical amount of fermentable and non-fermentable sugars that is referred to as its percent extraction or maximum yield. This number ranges from 50 - 80% by weight, with some wheat malts hitting as high as 85%. "

So you're saying you're getting 92% of the theoretical ~80% max? Am I misunderstanding the reference point of an efficiency percentage?

Sent from my HTC Vision using Home Brew Talk

Yeah hot water lines build up minerals and can release lead. I don't use hot water for my beer, soups or coffee. Consuming water from the hot water tap is not advised.

Why not just mash directly in the bottling bucket?

That way you can use your empty pot to heat sparge water in the meantime. And if you are worried about heat loss during the mash, you can wrap your bucket in towels, blankets, sleeping bag, old clothes, or anything else that provides some insulation.

ezzieyguywuf said:

Isn't something like 90% efficiency theoretically impossible?

edit: From Palmer - " Under laboratory conditions, each grain will yield a typical amount of fermentable and non-fermentable sugars that is referred to as its percent extraction or maximum yield. This number ranges from 50 - 80% by weight, with some wheat malts hitting as high as 85%. "

So you're saying you're getting 92% of the theoretical ~80% max? Am I misunderstanding the reference point of an efficiency percentage?

Sent from my HTC Vision using Home Brew Talk

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Yeah, our efficiency refers to the percentage of the dry yield fine grind extract in the lab. That is OUR theoretical maximum.

devilishprune said:

Yeah, our efficiency refers to the percentage of the dry yield fine grind extract in the lab. That is OUR theoretical maximum.

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So given that definition, if I had a lab-like environment, ~100% efficiency is totally feasible then?

ezzieyguywuf said:

So given that definition, if I had a lab-like environment, ~100% efficiency is totally feasible then?

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Sure, just do a Congress mash: pulverize the grist into flour, do a long rest at 40°C, ramp it up 1°C/min to 70°C, and do another lengthy rest. The result is, by definition, 100% extract efficiency.

Ah hah, I see. Thanks for clarifying that guys. </threadjack>

If you don't do any of the math, how do you know you get 80%? I have a hard time believing you hit 80% when you're diluting your wort with 2 gallons of water.

I have a 5 gal pot and a mash tun that I brew with. I do 3.5 gallon batches (no dilution). Don't see how your method is simpler...I prefer not to have to hover over my tun stirring and worrying about holding temperature, sounds complicated.

I applaud you for coming up with a minimalist system that anyone can do, but would like a few more facts before I believe it completely. How do you know you hit 80%?

A little checking into beersmith...You'd have to make 3 gallons of 1.085 beer to be able to dilute it with 2 gallons and have a 1.05 beer. And this assumes you hit 80%. I use the 3 gallon mark because if you have a 5 gallon pot, you can only boil so much, say 4.5 gal comfortably, and probably boils down to around 3-3.5 (I know mine does). Also to take into account, hop usage decreases with smaller boil volume, so you would have to figure out how much hops to use.

It kinda sounds like I am attacking your method, I am not. Just want to understand. I am more on the other end of the beer brewing, I enjoy hitting my numbers and knowing what numbers I will have to get to. So to me, this requires more attention to detail to do properly than it would doing it the way I (and many others) brew.

bobbrewster said:

-That's it. Not scientific by no means but will consistently provide you with efficiency greater than 80% in just a few hours with minimal equipment investment. Hope this helps some of you that are hesitant on all grain brewing. Happy brewing!

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TheMan said:

If you don't do any of the math, how do you know you get 80%? I have a hard time believing you hit 80% when you're diluting your wort with 2 gallons of water.

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I am not going to pick apart your method. Everyone should feel free to brew however they want.

Your mash process seems fine. Hot water + grain, held at temp. Yup. That's a mash, and you nailed it.

Your sparge process seems fine. Grain separated from liquid and the grain rinsed with hot water. Nailed that, too.

BUT, I am going to question your claim of 80% efficiency. If you mash enough grain for a 5 gallons, but only collect 3 or 4 gallons of wort from the mash, it doubt you are anywhere near 80% efficiency.

TheMan said:

If you don't do any of the math, how do you know you get 80%?

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I personally don't doubt the OP but this is an excellent question.

it might help to know which efficiency he is talking about, too. There are many points along the brew day to measure efficiency, and they all tell you different things.

I personally used overall brewhouse effiency, which is based on the gravity and volume I end up with in my fermenter at the end of the session.

I agree Walker. If he is referring to simply efficiency into the boiler, then it's possible he hits 80% consistently. Brewhouse efficiency though, I cannot see any way someone could hit 80% using this method.

I live in a mansion compared to the OP! (650 sf apartment)

I've only been doing extract batches so far for exactly this reason, not enough space to store all of my equipment. I really like this idea and I may have to try it sometime soon

Thanks a lot!

Very similar to Deathbrewer's Easy Partial Mash Brewing -- with pics, stickied in the Beginning Brewing forum.

It's a good way to get started on the road to all grain, especially with limited space and/or equipment.

kanzimonson said:

I don't think it sounds like a bad method but I'm skeptical about the 80% efficiency.
If I do a recipe with less grain (like 10#) I've gotten efficiency in the upper 80s so maybe your method works with smaller amounts of grain?

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Yes, you're right on... I should have been more specific.. This efficiency is with around 9-10lb grain bill, which I average low 80% efficiency. The few times I've all grained with "big" beers I usually max out around the upper 70% considering using the same method with same amount of sparge water etc. Cheers to the clarification!

weirdboy said:

Why not just mash directly in the bottling bucket?

That way you can use your empty pot to heat sparge water in the meantime. And if you are worried about heat loss during the mash, you can wrap your bucket in towels, blankets, sleeping bag, old clothes, or anything else that provides some insulation.

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Love brainstorming! This could save maybe... 5-10 minutes or more?? Simplify the process even more?? Add it to my list of minimalist brew ideas. Cheers!

People are being too nice. This is just an overly-complicated BIAB. Look it up, you'd be better off with it.

TheMan said:

If you don't do any of the math, how do you know you get 80%? I have a hard time believing you hit 80% when you're diluting your wort with 2 gallons of water.

I have a 5 gal pot and a mash tun that I brew with. I do 3.5 gallon batches (no dilution). Don't see how your method is simpler...I prefer not to have to hover over my tun stirring and worrying about holding temperature, sounds complicated.

I applaud you for coming up with a minimalist system that anyone can do, but would like a few more facts before I believe it completely. How do you know you hit 80%?

A little checking into beersmith...You'd have to make 3 gallons of 1.085 beer to be able to dilute it with 2 gallons and have a 1.05 beer. And this assumes you hit 80%. I use the 3 gallon mark because if you have a 5 gallon pot, you can only boil so much, say 4.5 gal comfortably, and probably boils down to around 3-3.5 (I know mine does). Also to take into account, hop usage decreases with smaller boil volume, so you would have to figure out how much hops to use.

It kinda sounds like I am attacking your method, I am not. Just want to understand. I am more on the other end of the beer brewing, I enjoy hitting my numbers and knowing what numbers I will have to get to. So to me, this requires more attention to detail to do properly than it would doing it the way I (and many others) brew.

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Didn't say I don't know how to "hit the numbers". Used to measure all my water, etc and make the same gravity brew every time... Just don't care to anymore. I know the basics of all the numbers but have to admit I'm rather new to mashing. Only about 15 mashes under my belt so far. Sure, like I said in the OP, nothing scientific in this method, just insight for new all grainers. Hell, even making the exact same grain bill twice, I may hit 70% one time (not normal) and 85% the next.

If you must know... (i knew someone would)... last brew for example... 9lb 2row(38 max ppg)+ 1lb cry40(34 max ppg)..my O.G.= 1.064 (yes in 5 gal,yes cal'd hydrometer etc.) 64/10=6.4 pp5g x 5 =32/37.6(max ppg for grain bill) =85.10%. One of my highest yet but a good example. This same brew a couple months ago was 74%. They were both tasty and delicious.. and both took about 3.5 hours from front door to cleaning the pots! I started this thread not only to encourage new all grainers but also for constructive criticism. So please let me know if there's something wrong with my numbers. I'd hate if all these hangovers we're placebo effect! Cheers!

rexbanner said:

People are being too nice. This is just an overly-complicated BIAB. Look it up, you'd be better off with it.

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Tried the BIAB a few times. Couldn't get the efficiency over 70% in a 20qt pot so bought an extra 16qt pot (listed in my OP equip) for sparging and finally got my 75-85% without a huge pot (which won't work on my stove in 500sq ft apt)

rexbanner said:

People are being too nice. This is just an overly-complicated BIAB. Look it up, you'd be better off with it.

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Actually, it's nothing like a BIAB (which I'm sure he's aware of and doesn't need to "look up"), and more like partial-mash technology scaled up to full AG. I did one partial mash before moving to AG and this brought back memories of me and my buddy straddling the pail with a giant colander. BIAB would be far less efficient, since the grains cannot be rinsed as effectively.

I do something similar to this. I bring around 3.5 gallons of water to around 165F (gas stove), and place a large grain bag in the pot (pot can hold 5 gallons), then dump and stir usually around 10.5lbs of grain in. During this my oven is pre heating to 170F. After the grains are mixed in well I put the lid on the pot, place it in the oven and turn off the stove. I usually do 60-90 minute mashes and stir the grains every 30 minutes. The temperature stays at 155f. During the mash I heat up another 4.5 gallons of water to around 175 in another 5 gallon pot. One the mash in done I take out the mash tun (pot in the oven) and lift the grain bag and place it in an extra bottling bucket, (i only use this bucket for this purpose), then I pour the 4.5 gallons of 175F water in the bucket and place the lid on and let it sit there for around 10 minutes. Then I take the lid off, give it a stir, place the 5 gallon pot with wort from the mash under the bucket and open the spigot to around 25%. I fill that pot up to around 3.5 gallons of wort and then take the 2nd 5 gallon pot and fill it up to around 3.5 gallons of wort. My stove cant boil over 5 gallons comfortably so I split the 7 gallons of wort into two pots and boil throwing the hops in per recipe. I have been getting 75%-80% efficiency everytime. This process works for me and I will probably continue brewing like this unless I purchase a 10 gallon cooler. There are lots of different methods out there, you just have to figure it out your way using the equipment you have. Work on getting around the same efficiency each time! Once you know your system you can adjust the amount of grains for your recipes.

joety said:

Actually, it's nothing like a BIAB (which I'm sure he's aware of and doesn't need to "look up"), and more like partial-mash technology scaled up to full AG. I did one partial mash before moving to AG and this brought back memories of me and my buddy straddling the pail with a giant colander. BIAB would be far less efficient, since the grains cannot be rinsed as effectively.

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Sorry man but you are wrong. My BIAB yesterday was 88% Brewhouse efficiency.

Because something is in a bag doesn't make it less efficient. In fact most of the time BAIB is more efficient because you can grind the grain finer and not get a stuck mash.

grasshopperfirestarter said:

My stove cant boil over 5 gallons comfortably so I split the 7 gallons of wort into two pots and boil throwing the hops in per recipe. I have been getting 75%-80% efficiency everytime.

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Good idea! from my method you could also just take the unused 16qt pot after sparging and use it on an extra burner to get a full 6+ gallon boil. NICE! Adds a step, which I don't like, but its easy enough and worth it being able to do a full boil. Try this way next time, thanks, cheers!

TheMan said:

I prefer not to have to hover over my tun stirring and worrying about holding temperature, sounds complicated.

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Not at all, after it reaches 154-155-160 (whatever), usually achieved in 15 min or so on med/high heat, I simply remove from heat and check it every 15-20min for an hour. Usually never falls below 150 if removed at <160. If 500sq ft apt is 60d I may have to add a little med heat once more for 5 min or so to raise it above 154 for the rest of the mash. This is only on a very rare, cold day in san diego and I forget to turn on the space heater. Usually just raise it to 160 at the start, put the lid on and spend an hour getting all my equip sanitized. Then it's usually no cooler than 152, without using blankets, coolers, or creatively built foam lined boxes etc.. Not enough space and no worries.

Have to agree that if you are in a cramped apartment this is the way to go. Looks like I might be moving to the city in September and this seems like it will be my new method.

With any method there are compromises, with a full AG setup there is complete control but serious investment both in time, money, and most importantly space. With this simplified method there is not nearly as much control (but still makes beer), but takes up waaaay less space.

joety said:

Actually, it's nothing like a BIAB (which I'm sure he's aware of and doesn't need to "look up"), and more like partial-mash technology scaled up to full AG. I did one partial mash before moving to AG and this brought back memories of me and my buddy straddling the pail with a giant colander. BIAB would be far less efficient, since the grains cannot be rinsed as effectively.

Click to expand...

joety said:

Actually, it's nothing like a BIAB (which I'm sure he's aware of and doesn't need to "look up"), and more like partial-mash technology scaled up to full AG. I did one partial mash before moving to AG and this brought back memories of me and my buddy straddling the pail with a giant colander. BIAB would be far less efficient, since the grains cannot be rinsed as effectively.

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I see your point, and I take back what I said.

I'm not sure what the differences are fly vs. batch sparging in terms of efficiency. Some people don't sparge with BIAB, but I did when I did it. As long as you have another container, you can sparge. And you can get reasonably high efficiency.

For example, I did plenty of 5 gallon AG batches with two 5 gallon aluminum pots I bought for 17 a pop. I insulated the pots with reflective insulation, mashed in one, and batch sparged in another, then did a split boil on my stovetop. I'd batch sparge in the other pot, and then I'd sparge one more time by simply pouring a gallon of cold water over my bag as it drained to get my pre-boil volume.

I got about 75-80% efficiency with that method. I brewed for years in a tiny apartment on a very low budget, so I had similar concerns as the OP. Recently, I decided to just build a cooler mash tun.

If those are your numbers then you have indeed hit what you claim (at least once). And that's great. However, this method is as you said, to make beer. If you want to repeat your beer, it's not easy without knowing your measurements and having control of your process. You claim between 70% to 85% efficiency...this will make beer. You won't know what you're going to end up with, but you will have a close idea and have beer. (close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades though)

The mash method of just heating it to 160 and letting it fall to 150 is just an uncontrolled process that will have different results every time. It doesn't sound like it will matter what temp you start it at, since the temp is fluctuating the entire time you mash. You should wrap it in a blanket or something to help keep temps more stable. Maybe even throw it in a preheated oven.

In the end, I suppose this lackadaisical approach is just not for me. If people want to just "make beer", then this is for them. If you want to shoot for a specific style and be able to repeat your process and create the same beer more than once then you will need to incorporate more control in your process.

TheMan said:

If those are your numbers then you have indeed hit what you claim (at least once). And that's great. However, this method is as you said, to make beer. If you want to repeat your beer, it's not easy without knowing your measurements and having control of your process. You claim between 70% to 85% efficiency...this will make beer. You won't know what you're going to end up with, but you will have a close idea and have beer. (close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades though)

The mash method of just heating it to 160 and letting it fall to 150 is just an uncontrolled process that will have different results every time. It doesn't sound like it will matter what temp you start it at, since the temp is fluctuating the entire time you mash. You should wrap it in a blanket or something to help keep temps more stable. Maybe even throw it in a preheated oven. In the end, I suppose this lackadaisical approach is just not for me. If people want to just "make beer", then this is for them. If you want to shoot for a specific style and be able to repeat your process and create the same beer more than once then you will need to incorporate more control in your process.

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This is what I do. My oven has settings every 5 degrees from 100F and up. Not sure if that's common but it's great to maintain heat, especially when doing a step or long mash. I mash in my brew kettle at 152 in a 150 oven for 90 min without losing any temp. Just keep it off the bottoms (I put the rack on the bottom because I want to maintain a gap but I'm not sure if the rack can handle the weight suspended)

TheMan said:

If those are your numbers then you have indeed hit what you claim (at least once). And that's great. However, this method is as you said, to make beer. If you want to repeat your beer, it's not easy without knowing your measurements and having control of your process. You claim between 70% to 85% efficiency...this will make beer. You won't know what you're going to end up with, but you will have a close idea and have beer. (close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades though)

The mash method of just heating it to 160 and letting it fall to 150 is just an uncontrolled process that will have different results every time. It doesn't sound like it will matter what temp you start it at, since the temp is fluctuating the entire time you mash. You should wrap it in a blanket or something to help keep temps more stable. Maybe even throw it in a preheated oven.

In the end, I suppose this lackadaisical approach is just not for me. If people want to just "make beer", then this is for them. If you want to shoot for a specific style and be able to repeat your process and create the same beer more than once then you will need to incorporate more control in your process.

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No, this method will not win any awards for perfectly cloning a guideline style or give you the "exact" same beer every time. That's why I said in the OP that this may not be for ppl like you. To me that's half the fun. If I made the exact same beer every time it would take out some of the fun (for me). But it does, 70% or 85% with the same recipe, make the same beer close enough that anyone other than a judge at one of your competitions won't notice much of a difference. If you so desire, you can easily (I do sometimes with more sensitive styles) do all the time consuming math etc. you need to to get the "exact" style. I designed this with what you call "lackadaisical" or what I call "easy" instructions for the new all grainer as to not be intimidating, not for the condescending master homebrewers. Thank you for your insight anyhow.

+1 for BIAB, Full Volume, No Sparge
I have been getting about 75% efficiency and am loving the step up from extract with out all the equipment and time.