5.2 used in sparge not mash?

Brewed a wheat beer yesterday and forgot to add 5.2 ph additive to the mash, but did add it the 2 batch spathes we made. Tried the beer before pitching and got very bitter up front taste. I also learned we have a green algae problem with our water supply. We've used this water before with no problems. Here' the recipe:

6.75# muttons marris otter
6.50# white wheat
.75# munich
.25# caraviene

.25 oz amarillo @60 min
all other hop additions made @ or after 25min mark. So not worried about bitterness coming from hops.

Mash temp 152, sparge temps 168.

Ant ideas about up front bitterness?

Tannin extraction is possible if the pH was higher than normal, and that would account for a "puckering" taste, but to be honest I wouldn't worry about it. It's probably fine.

I never use 5.2, not sure how your water is, but I'm sure you're fine. The bitterness you're getting could just be excess hop material in suspension.

The stabilizer won't work in the sparge. The point is to bring the mash pH down to optimal range. Your grist doesn't suggest malts affecting the astringency (like it would with a stout, for example), but without any knowledge of your starting point (water profile), it's hard to say what's going on.

cactusgarrett said:

The stabilizer won't work in the sparge. The point is to bring the mash pH down to optimal range. Your grist doesn't suggest malts affecting the astringency (like it would with a stout, for example), but without any knowledge of your starting point (water profile), it's hard to say what's going on.

Click to expand...

Actually PH is important all the way through. If his water PH is high as mine is, that is the one factor that can be actively pulling tannnis from his mash. I experienced the same thing, but I was using 5.2 in the mash only. After 2 semi-bad batches (bitter taste, more than I felt there should have been) I started using 5.2 to treat my whole water bill. Ever since my beer has been much better.
Take note that I do this for my lighter beers. My bicarbonates come in around 218 which is very high, but suited for stouts and porters, so I don't use 5.2 when sparging for those styles, just in the mash to help extraction of sugars.

Pubwilson said:

Actually PH is important all the way through. If his water PH is high as mine is, that is the one factor that can be actively pulling tannnis from his mash. I experienced the same thing, but I was using 5.2 in the mash only. After 2 semi-bad batches (bitter taste, more than I felt there should have been) I started using 5.2 to treat my whole water bill. Ever since my beer has been much better.

Click to expand...

Not according to the mgf. They say putting their product in the sparge water is a waste. Your main concern is the ph of the mash not your tap water. That being said you won't hurt anything (or experience off flavors) by using it in the sparge. It just doesn't do anything.

It's my understanding that adding more of the stabilizer won't continually decrease the pH, but rather parks it at a desired range.

wildwest450 said:

Not according to the mgf. They say putting their product in the sparge water is a waste. Your main concern is the ph of the mash not your tap water. That being said you won't hurt anything (or experience off flavors) by using it in the sparge. It just doesn't do anything.

Click to expand...

I never quite understood the usage instructions for 5.2. They say that if you are to use a total of 5 gallons for the brew (total water for the day... mash and sparge combined), then you use 1 tbsp in the MLT at the time of mashing.

Does this stuff settle into the grain or something? I would think it would be dissolved in the water and then most of it would run out with the first runnings.

Walker said:

I never quite understood the usage instructions for 5.2. They say that if you are to use a total of 5 gallons for the brew (total water for the day... mash and sparge combined), then you use 1 tbsp in the MLT at the time of mashing.

Does this stuff settle into the grain or something? I would think it would be dissolved in the water and then most of it would run out with the first runnings.

Click to expand...

I believe they are referring to batch size. Not sure, I always just put it in the tun before even adding water (im forgetful), it dissolved when i added strike water. I always added 1 tbsp for single batches.

I haven't used it for a while since investing in some ph strips. It seems my mashes have been in the low 5's all along.

wildwest450 said:

I believe they are referring to batch size. Not sure, I always just put it in the tun before even adding water (im forgetful), it dissolved when i added strike water. I always added 1 tbsp for single batches.

I haven't used it for a while since investing in some ph strips. It seems my mashes have been in the low 5's all along.

Click to expand...

Nope.. you're right. Here's the label.


You can see where it says to base it on the amount leaving the kettle.

It still seems weird to me how it's used, though. For my 5 gallon APA recipe, I use a total of 9 gallons of water. But, I mash-in with only 4 gallons.... so 1 tbsp goes into that 4 gallons and then none is added to the remaining 5 gallons of water I will use.

That's why I was asking if the stuff "sticks" to the grain.

wildwest450 said:

Not according to the mgf. They say putting their product in the sparge water is a waste. Your main concern is the ph of the mash not your tap water. That being said you won't hurt anything (or experience off flavors) by using it in the sparge. It just doesn't do anything.

Click to expand...

So it doesn't do anything? So why put it in the mash in the first place. If the 5.2 gets your mash PH to where you want it, wouldn't new treated tap water raise the PH again? I have a pot that holds my entire water bill, so I now just treat the whole deal. If you don't OP, then just keep good notes on your beers that way you can try it both ways. One more thing to keep in mind is your mash temps.

Check this out for more info on PH and Temperature affect on tannins.

Pubwilson said:

So it doesn't do anything? So why put it in the mash in the first place. If the 5.2 gets your mash PH to where you want it, wouldn't new treated tap water raise the PH again?

Click to expand...

Thats according to the mfg, not me. You treat the mash because it needs to be in a certain ph range, tap water does not. I would assume that in the realitively short time that sparging takes place, it doesn't adversely effect the ph.

I believe getting your mash pH in line is for optimal conversion, not necessarily for avoiding tannin extraction. I guess the batch versus fly sparging issue might seem more relavant at this point, as a high pH sparge will have a more pronounced affect during a 60min fly sparge as opposed to a 10min batch sparge.

Evenso, as the mash acts as sort of a buffer, your sparge water would have to be pretty basic to affect a mash *performed with optimum water* (ie. 5.2 used, as well as non-alkaline in the first place). Keep in mind, 5.2 isn't a panacea - it can't correct very bad water.

That said, i also won't argue what works for you (or anyone else).

while pH does matter the entire mash/sparge process, its pretty difficult for a batch sparger to run into pH issues since we're not continuously diluting the mash with a fly sparge, not to mention its quite a bit faster (from what I've read).

I just add 1tbsp to my strike water in the MLT, add my grain to the water (no dough balls), and that's that. never sparged with pH 5.2 added to that water.

I believe the mfg says to put it in the mash as that is where people are more likely to have a problem, and the consequences in the mash of improper pH are more important (poor starch conversion and tannin extraction).

Some people, particularly those with hard alkaline water, who also fly sparge, can run into pH problems during the sparge. Here the addition of 5.2 can help (or another method to lower the pH). For many people though this is NOT needed. Since the instructions are written with the typical brewer in mind they don't address every possible brewing water scenario. Just because they say you add it too the mash, that doesn't mean it won't benefit some to also add it to the sparge water. They never say NOT to add it to the sparge water.