Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Bottling/Kegging > Keg conditioning vs force carbonation.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-06-2013, 04:48 AM   #1
sawbossFogg
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
Posts: 243
Liked 13 Times on 10 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default Keg conditioning vs force carbonation.

Anyone have a good reason for naturally conditioning kegs when force carbonating is so much faster and more reliable?

__________________
sawbossFogg is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-06-2013, 04:51 AM   #2
twalte
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Roseville (Sacramento), California
Posts: 394
Liked 29 Times on 27 Posts
Likes Given: 38

Default

Subscribed...if there is a reason, would love to know.

__________________

"You can’t be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline – it helps if you have some kind of football team, or some nuclear weapons but at the very least you need a beer"
- Frank Zappa

twalte is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-06-2013, 05:11 AM   #3
mikescooling
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,669
Liked 207 Times on 157 Posts
Likes Given: 187

Default

Some people (myself) think it gives a smoother beer. The monks do it that make Duvel, and a few others do it as well. What do I do? I keg everything of course.

__________________
mikescooling is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-06-2013, 05:40 AM   #4
Neerdowell
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin
Posts: 13
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Might be academic from a homebrewer's standpoint, but if pride is an issue and you want to brew your German styles according to the reinheitsgebot, forced carbonation is out unless your using the C02 that is a by-product from fermentation, or so I've heard. Saving C02 is way beyond any current goals for me.

Perhaps a more useful reason was mentioned in the Nov/Dec 2012 zymurgy - krausening by adding an active fermenting yeast can help eat up remaining diacetyl. I have yet to try this, though. I usually just save about a liter of unfermented wort in sanitized bottles as gyle for conditioning my kegs.

The main reason I naturally carbonate, though, is to save my keezer space for my carbonated kegs. I can naturally carbonate while the keezer is full and the C02 expenditure to force carbonate is greater at higher temperatures.

__________________
Neerdowell is offline
LoloMT7 Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-06-2013, 11:15 PM   #5
sawbossFogg
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
Posts: 243
Liked 13 Times on 10 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

It's been on my mind as I like to prime my kegs w beergas, which I of course cannot do naturally. I don't force carbonate in my keg fridge because I believe colder liquids will require more time to get gases into solution. I think i should be using wort as well, however I've really had challenges getting the right proportions (whatever sugars used) even using BeerSmith tools etc. I suppose it is unnecessary and arguably wasteful to use the canned co2, but that hasn't concerned me. I do like bottling as well and priming bottles has been pretty easy. I don't have the means to lager and German zeitgeist doesn't concern me other. I'll keep trying natural carbonation, hell I can always put gas into it.

__________________
sawbossFogg is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-07-2013, 01:28 AM   #6
JuanMoore
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JuanMoore's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Old Pueblo
Posts: 16,363
Liked 3217 Times on 3120 Posts
Likes Given: 18

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbossFogg View Post
It's been on my mind as I like to prime my kegs w beergas, which I of course cannot do naturally. I don't force carbonate in my keg fridge because I believe colder liquids will require more time to get gases into solution.
Using beergas to carbonate takes a lot longer, uses up a more expensive product, and doesn't have any benefit. Carb with CO2 (forced or naturally) and then serve with beergas through a nitro faucet. What the beergas does is allow a higher serving pressure without severely overcarbonating the beer.

And FWIW gasses are actually significantly more soluble in liquids at lower temps.
__________________
Keezer Soze

Yuri rubs it out with 60 grit... wouldn't even feel a tenga egg. -Randar

, place entry ox dixla to suck. Fcxk fwnpoo and passed. Hel an my spupid ass. OK. - TXCrash
JuanMoore is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-08-2013, 03:48 AM   #7
sawbossFogg
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
Posts: 243
Liked 13 Times on 10 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

Jaun, I really like serving nitro beer and I'm glad you're interested, but I have a couple strong disagreements, based on experience. First, when breweries condition beer in Brite tanks, if the beer is going to be served on Beergas it MUST be conditioned that way. That is because CO2 is much more soluble than nitrogen and what you have in a bottle to push beer with is simply used for that, to push, whats in solution is a different matter. Heres an example, if you buy a keg of carbonated beer and attempt to serve it with beer gas, even at low pressure you'll be putting carbonated beer through a nitro faucet and you'll get foam! I tried this many times and until I asked several different breweries how I should go about it, I didn't get it right. The only functional method is to flatten carbonated beer and start over with beergas to get nitrogen into solution. This method takes about 4 days for a qtr barrel (at room temp). I find that my 40 cu ft bottle of beergas lasts a very long time and it only costs $30 to fill so...
As far as gas being more or less soluble at differing temps in liquids, I think thats a simple matter of physical chemistry whereby colder liquid molecules are slower and more dense. Breweries probably keep their brite tanks at fridge temps for freshness, but if you want to speed up physical processes, warm things up. Hey, I'm always up for learning something new, maybe there's call for another thread.

__________________
sawbossFogg is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-08-2013, 04:47 AM   #8
JuanMoore
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JuanMoore's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Old Pueblo
Posts: 16,363
Liked 3217 Times on 3120 Posts
Likes Given: 18

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbossFogg View Post
Jaun, I really like serving nitro beer and I'm glad you're interested, but I have a couple strong disagreements, based on experience. First, when breweries condition beer in Brite tanks, if the beer is going to be served on Beergas it MUST be conditioned that way. That is because CO2 is much more soluble than nitrogen and what you have in a bottle to push beer with is simply used for that, to push, whats in solution is a different matter. Heres an example, if you buy a keg of carbonated beer and attempt to serve it with beer gas, even at low pressure you'll be putting carbonated beer through a nitro faucet and you'll get foam! I tried this many times and until I asked several different breweries how I should go about it, I didn't get it right. The only functional method is to flatten carbonated beer and start over with beergas to get nitrogen into solution. This method takes about 4 days for a qtr barrel (at room temp). I find that my 40 cu ft bottle of beergas lasts a very long time and it only costs $30 to fill so...
As far as gas being more or less soluble at differing temps in liquids, I think thats a simple matter of physical chemistry whereby colder liquid molecules are slower and more dense. Breweries probably keep their brite tanks at fridge temps for freshness, but if you want to speed up physical processes, warm things up. Hey, I'm always up for learning something new, maybe there's call for another thread.
The majority of the small bubbles and cascading head effect from a nitro faucet is from the beer being forced through the small holes in the restrictor plate at high pressure, breaking the bubbles up, not from the tiny amount of nitrogen in solution. Plenty of breweries carbonate their nitro beers with pure CO2 and then use beergas to serve, so I'm not sure where you're getting the info that it MUST be conditioned with beergas. You can get the same cascading head effect without any nitrogen. You can push with high pressure through the nitro faucet using pure CO2 and get the same effect, you just can't leave it at that pressure for any length of time or it will severely overcarbonate the beer. I believe it was Yuri who experimented with using pure argon to push a carbonated beer through a nitro faucet, and he reported that it worked just as well as beergas.

As for buying a keg of carbonated beer and serving it through a nitro faucet, the reason that it typically produces a ton of foam is that it's usually overcarbed for a nitro faucet. Most commercial beer is carbed to ~2.7 vol, and anything over ~2.0 vol is asking for trouble with a nitro faucet. Degas the keg to ~1.8 vol and it should pour fine, even without any "conditioning" time on the beergas.

Gasses being more soluble in liquids at colder temperatures is a well known fact, and an example of Henry's law. Even if you're not familiar with chemistry or Henry's law, it should be obvious just by looking at any carbonation chart. By warming things up, you're both slowing down the carbonation process, and reducing the total carbonation possible at a given pressure. I keep most of my beers at 40°F and 11 psi for a carbonation level of 2.4 vol. To get that same level of carbonation at 65°F I'd have to increase the pressure to 27 psi.

Here's a graph showing CO2 solubility in water at 1 atm-


Here's one for nitrogen, also at 1 atm-
__________________
Keezer Soze

Yuri rubs it out with 60 grit... wouldn't even feel a tenga egg. -Randar

, place entry ox dixla to suck. Fcxk fwnpoo and passed. Hel an my spupid ass. OK. - TXCrash
JuanMoore is offline
alexroussos Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-08-2013, 05:14 AM   #9
bottlebomber
Feedback Score: 4 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: ukiah, CA
Posts: 14,251
Liked 2642 Times on 2068 Posts
Likes Given: 294

Default

I have strong disagreements too Juan, and would also like to add that you are an asshole

__________________
bottlebomber is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-08-2013, 05:22 AM   #10
JuanMoore
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JuanMoore's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Old Pueblo
Posts: 16,363
Liked 3217 Times on 3120 Posts
Likes Given: 18

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bottlebomber View Post
I have strong disagreements too Juan, and would also like to add that you are an asshole
Hah! Well, I figure that last part is a given.
__________________
Keezer Soze

Yuri rubs it out with 60 grit... wouldn't even feel a tenga egg. -Randar

, place entry ox dixla to suck. Fcxk fwnpoo and passed. Hel an my spupid ass. OK. - TXCrash
JuanMoore is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Force Carb vs. Conditioning MikeMetroka Bottling/Kegging 9 01-12-2012 09:14 AM
Force carbonation vs bottle conditioning? petrostar General Techniques 11 10-11-2011 04:04 PM
Bottle conditioning vs. force carbonation for long term storage 54BelAir Bottling/Kegging 4 10-08-2011 03:14 PM
New to brewing, Force Carbonation? or natural Carbonation? tha_cyko Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 1 07-01-2011 02:20 AM
Conditioning / Force Carbing Question CarsonCE Bottling/Kegging 4 01-04-2010 08:58 PM