Any one ever use DME in their cider??

I am not talking about graff. I know the graff recipes call fore DME but they also call for hops and some whole grains. I am wondering what kind of results have been made by just using DME, especially dark DME. So if you have used Just DME, let me know.

Search slightly hopped cider. Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider) is the name of thread

Yes, there is a naked guy with a gun around here somewhere who is the creator of graff. If you read his progression thoroughly, you will see that he did in-fact use dme without hops originally. The recipe was changed to include hops as to "balance the flavours". I believe the man said the original recipe was a bit tart for his liking.

I've made quite a few batches of Graf and I think DME works well in cider. Also the torrified wheat does give it a little head retention. (more like beer) The hops part is a bit tricky. I've tried different varieties and have found that no matter what you add...the original Graf recipe is too young. It still needs aging IMO.

The citrusy hops make it even more sour. (cascades) I've found that something subtle like Northern Brewer or East Kent Goldings work nicely. It's also better if you use them as flavoring hops instead of using them all as bittering.

I've never made it with just DME (sans hops) but I think it would probably work out well. Something like hibiscus or heather flowers might work in place of hops also. Cide-gruit?

Thanks Pickled_Pepper. So other than head retention how does the DME effect the cider especially taste??? and how would a dark DME in cider be different from a light DME flavor wise?? I am not a beer brewer so I am not familiar with either of these products. Like I said in my original post I am not looking to make a graff, in fact I will probably back sweeten so the brew will be even closer to cider. I just want to do know more about DME.

It's powdered malt, so it's going to make it taste more like beer. The more you add the more it will taste like beer. My guess is, the DME alone might add some head retention, but probably not a whole lot. It will add a little body as well. As for the sweetness it will contribute, not much, unless you go overboard and use a yeast with low attenuation. (leaving a higher final gravity) Darker DMEs with give a carmel taste to the brew when it ferments out.

Essentially you are adding malt flavored sugar (with some unfermentables)...so the more sugar the higher the ABV and more aging. I've got a 7% ABV Graf in bottles now that is cloyingly sweet and will kick the crap out of you. It has 4 lbs of DME in it and using a a low attenuating yeast...it only went down to 1.016. (It's been in bottles for 2 months and no bombs)

I personally like to make a 3 gallon batch of beer and add two gallons of AJ. In English Ales it gives a nice fruity-ester like quality. It also keeps your final gravity above what a typical cider would be. Said that...it's more like beer than cider.

Fantastic information and just what I was looking for!!!! One more question you said

Pickled_Pepper said:

As for the sweetness it will contribute, not much...

...Essentially you are adding malt flavored sugar (with some unfermentables)

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so how will the unfermentabls effect the final SG reading?? obviously the more DME I use the higher the reading will be but does it add a lot or just a few points??

Unfortunately, I can't answer that 100%. I'm sure that different brands of DME will contain more unfermentables as well as darker and lighter varieties.

As an experiment I went to Hopville.com and created a 1 gallon recipe. added 1 lb of Muntons Extra Light DME...it starts at 1.034 and ends at 1.009 (with S-04).

With Munton's Dark DME it starts at 1.044 and ends at 1.012.

Obviously this isn't scientific, but could be helpful. I think you are a scientist or sort aren't you? I'm obviously not...just a tinkerer. haha

I'd love to see any experiments or info you might come up with.

DME typically contains 44 points per lb. One lb per gallon will raise gravity by approx 44 points, which is roughly the same as sugar. Difference is that sugar fully ferments, but not DME.

You can go higher or lower, but most beer yeasts will ferment 70-80% of the DME. I've never tried it, but I would assume a cider or wine yeast would have similar results.

You can see various types of DME here. http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Extracts.htm#GoldenLight

Their light DME is basically a base malt (think pale ale) and carapils. Carapils is unfermentable and adds body.

Their dark DME adds munich (malty), caramel 60 (caramel), and black malt (Dark malts are usually roasty, but I think this is more for color).

GinKings said:

DME typically contains 44 points per lb. One lb per gallon will raise gravity by approx 44 points, which is roughly the same as sugar. Difference is that sugar fully ferments, but not DME.

You can go higher or lower, but most beer yeasts will ferment 70-80% of the DME. I've never tried it, but I would assume a cider or wine yeast would have similar results.

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Thanks for the info. That is not far off the numbers Pickled_Pepper came up with. Based on what he found when he plugged the info in to the calculator 74% of the light DME would ferment out and 73% of the dark DME would ferment out.

Pickled_Pepper said:

As an experiment I went to Hopville.com and created a 1 gallon recipe. added 1 lb of Muntons Extra Light DME...it starts at 1.034 and ends at 1.009 (with S-04).

With Munton's Dark DME it starts at 1.044 and ends at 1.012.

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Could you have accidently entered Muntons extra light LME, instead of DME? Being a liquid, LME contains water, so it would have a lower gravity.

It was DME. Munton's DME is what I get from my LHBS, so I used that as an example. I went back and plugged in 1 lb of LME and it came out the same as the DME...so hopville might not be 100% acurate...it's saying about 34 PPG for XL DME

I'm very new to making cider but I thought I'd experiment with a one gallon batch using DME.

I I dissolved .5 cups of medium amber syrup and 1/4 pound pale DME into a gallon of fresh apple juice. I simmered a 1/2 cup of raisins in one cup of water for about 10 minutes and strained the juice into the apple juice as well.

I added DAP, malic acid, and pectic enzyme

Pitched Nottingham yeast.

I plan on priming with DME and FAJC

I know this doesn't answer any of your questions, but I'll let you know how it turns out (sounds like its close to what you wanted to make.)

GinKings said:

You can go higher or lower, but most beer yeasts will ferment 70-80% of the DME. I've never tried it, but I would assume a cider or wine yeast would have similar results.

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You are absolutely correct. I went to the beer and wine supply shop today and looked at DME. right on the package the light DME said 80% fermentable and on the dark it said 76% fermentable.

Another thing that you would be wise to consider is the fact that wine and champagne yeasts have not been bred (metaphorically of-course, what I really mean is put through selection events in their evolution) to break down more complex sugars such as maltose/dried malt extract.

What this means is that your final product could end up somewhat malty and sweet if you do not also use a beer yeast along-side your wine yeast.

But, this is of-course relative to the type of yeast you plan to pitch anyway. I am sure many wine yeasts are simply beer yeasts that have been crossed over and still are capable of breaking down maltose.

This could theoretically also cause a longer fermentation. You see, let us imagine that the yeast used was not able to ferment maltose but did have the genes within it's genome to do so. When you first pitch the yeast will go to work fermenting the simpler sugars present and cause an initial fermentation. As the yeast replicates itself, mutations will take place and possibly reactivate the protein sequences needed to ferment maltose. When this happens, that individual will have a new niche opened that will allow it to begin to rapidly reproduce itself. This growth will be exponential. Eventually, this will lead to a second fermentation taking place.

Then again, it is just as possible that a feral yeast contaminant could happen upon your cider and cause a simultaneous fermentation with your originally pitched yeast.

Daze said:

You are absolutely correct. I went to the bear and wine supply shop today and looked at DME. right on the package the light DME said 80% fermentable and on the dark it said 76% fermentable.

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Of-course, you should never trust a wine supply shop that does not have a few bears for sale.