Recirculating BIAB Mash with Propane

I'm looking for ways to better stabilize my mash temperatures for improved brew repeatability after repeating a few of my brews and getting just slightly different results (some other variables though - hop availability, grain substitutions etc.)

I do BIAB, and would love to add a tower of power controller, RIMS tube, an element or a control panel to my setup, but it just isn't in the budget unfortunately - and I can't find any low-priced alternatives.

I was wondering if anyone is recirculating with a pump and using something like this Thermoworks ChefAlarm that alerts you of high/low temperatures: http://www.thermoworks.com/products/alarm/chefalarm.html


My thoughts would be that I'd add direct heat through my propane burner if needed while recirculating to maintain a consistent mash temperature. I do this already with a thermapen, but do not recirculate. I have noticed at some times I can have 5 or 6 different temperatures going while mashing.

Does anyone do this with their BIAB setups? Does recirculating help? What are your experiences?

Thanks all

241 said:

I'm looking for ways to better stabilize my mash temperatures for improved brew repeatability after repeating a few of my brews and getting just slightly different results (some other variables though - hop availability, grain substitutions etc.)

I do BIAB, and would love to add a tower of power controller, RIMS tube, an element or a control panel to my setup, but it just isn't in the budget unfortunately - and I can't find any low-priced alternatives.

I was wondering if anyone is recirculating with a pump and using something like this Thermoworks ChefAlarm that alerts you of high/low temperatures: http://www.thermoworks.com/products/alarm/chefalarm.html

My thoughts would be that I'd add direct heat through my propane burner if needed while recirculating to maintain a consistent mash temperature. I do this already with a thermapen, but do not recirculate. I have noticed at some times I can have 5 or 6 different temperatures going while mashing.

Does anyone do this with their BIAB setups? Does recirculating help? What are your experiences?

Thanks all

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You could cut expenses a bit by building your RIMS tube (~$80), using something like Brewtroller for your contoller (~$70) and a March or Chugger pump (~$130). Of course there are additional costs for enclosures, wiring, etc. but it is a lot cheaper than a Tower of Power.

Another option would be to use a grant and direct fire that. Basically gravity drain the BIAB Tun into a grant (8qts should be plenty big enough), direct fire the grant, returning the wort to the BIAB...You would run this a recirc and without automation would probably want to monitor temps in both the grant and the BIAB vessel. Once you dial things in I expect you would find that heating the grant to a few degrees above mash temp will compensate for the heat loss due to plumbing and recirculation.

I do this. I have a similar submersible that I try to drop down into the mash. Then I have a Thermapen that I use up top. I find that while not adding heat, the two are 1-4 degrees apart.

Unfortunately, I find that adding direct heat just isn't very elegant. I do it, but I have to stir to get the heat properly mixed in. While I'm stirring, my therms have to come out. Just not that simple. It works, but consistency is difficult. I only use the pump to recirc while not heating. The mash is a bit of a wrestling match.

Much depends on the grist as well. I find that higher gravity beers, or higher amounts of wheat/rye will affect my ability distribute the heat, ie more stirring.

My brew partner (who runs a 3v 20g system at his place) and many comp judges have been very complimentary about the beers produced this way though, so it can be done successfully. Maybe not the easiest process, but for the $, I'm pretty happy.

Thanks helibrewer and Stalevel.

I am always looking for ways to make better beer. For adding direct heat, I was thinking that I'd get a compression fitting installed in a T adapter after the ball valve on my pump, and would adjust burner settings manually.

I will look into brewtroller a bit more. Ideally I'd go RIMS and just strike/boil with propane, but am trying to not spend additional money if I don't need to.

Hopefully others can chime in about their experiences with direct fire/recirculating without a RIMS.

Here is a brief summary of my setup that I only recently got working: I am recirculating with one of the cheap tan Chinese pumps. The pump sucks through the center of a false bottom in my keggle so that the warmest wort is moved from the bottom to the top. I have a tee with a temperature probe on the suction of my pump. I am using a raspberry pi for temperature control. The raspberry pi uses a small servo to adjust my propane regulator valve in order to control the burner output. So far I have only got 2 brews under my belt with my new recirc setup. I can control my temps at +-0.2 deg F when there is no wind. However, I had 15mph gusts of wind during my last brew and it took a toll on my temperature control. My temps were about +-1.1 deg F of my desired setpoint with the high winds.

I have done a few BIAB brews using a 20g tri-ply vessel and propane fired Blichmann burner, with recirc. through a March 815 pump. Monitoring temps has been done with a Taylor digital thermometer with a high temp alarm. So far, it has gone pretty well and I've made some nice beers with this setup, including 11g batches. But, it requires careful attention, especially during the mash and while the wort is coming up to a boil. I think the recirculation helps to maintain even heat during the mashing, and I think it also helps extraction of the grains (though this could also be achieved by stirring the grain bed). I also find that the recirculation helps with larger batches by minimizing the need to stir the grain bed after dough in. Of course, having a pump also facilitates cooling via a CFC. I'm building a whirlpool tube that will also benefit from the pump and hopefully minimize excess trub going to the fermentor.

I do like tob's servo controlled burner though. I've toyed with installing a heater element in the vessel, but like the portability of the propane setup. If the burner could be automated using tob's approach (or via a modulating gas valve), it would certainly make for a more hands off brew day. I'd love to see more details about tob's setup.

Thanks guys

tob77 said:

Here is a brief summary of my setup that I only recently got working: I am recirculating with one of the cheap tan Chinese pumps. The pump sucks through the center of a false bottom in my keggle so that the warmest wort is moved from the bottom to the top. I have a tee with a temperature probe on the suction of my pump. I am using a raspberry pi for temperature control. The raspberry pi uses a small servo to adjust my propane regulator valve in order to control the burner output. So far I have only got 2 brews under my belt with my new recirc setup. I can control my temps at +-0.2 deg F when there is no wind. However, I had 15mph gusts of wind during my last brew and it took a toll on my temperature control. My temps were about +-1.1 deg F of my desired setpoint with the high winds.

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Fascinating - this sounds very interesting. I know with my Blichmann floor burner, at the lowest setting it keeps a *fairly* even temperature if you're stirring the mash every 5-10 minutes.

tob, we'd love to hear more/see some links or details about your raspberry pi setup. I have one of those running XBMC on my TV (which is awesome for cutting cable btw).

How do you have the rasbpi set up - is there software you are running on it? USB temperature probe? How do you interface with the rasbpi? Which propane regulator valve are you using?

craigmw said:

I have done a few BIAB brews using a 20g tri-ply vessel and propane fired Blichmann burner, with recirc. through a March 815 pump. Monitoring temps has been done with a Taylor digital thermometer with a high temp alarm. So far, it has gone pretty well and I've made some nice beers with this setup, including 11g batches. But, it requires careful attention, especially during the mash and while the wort is coming up to a boil. I think the recirculation helps to maintain even heat during the mashing, and I think it also helps extraction of the grains (though this could also be achieved by stirring the grain bed). I also find that the recirculation helps with larger batches by minimizing the need to stir the grain bed after dough in. Of course, having a pump also facilitates cooling via a CFC. I'm building a whirlpool tube that will also benefit from the pump and hopefully minimize excess trub going to the fermentor.

Click to expand...

How often are you manually lighting/adjusting/turning off your Blichmann regulator? Does it over/undershoot - if so by how much? This is obviously the cheapest route - but again my goal is repeatability so if you're adjusting every few minutes there is the concern for the human element (me) doing one thing one time and then not doing it again the next.

241 said:

Thanks guys

How often are you manually lighting/adjusting/turning off your Blichmann regulator? Does it over/undershoot - if so by how much? This is obviously the cheapest route - but again my goal is repeatability so if you're adjusting every few minutes there is the concern for the human element (me) doing one thing one time and then not doing it again the next.

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I find this is usually about 2-4 times per 60 minute mash that I need to refire the burner. For 11g batches, this may only be once or twice due to the greater heat capacity. I think I may just throw some insulation on the pot during the mash to keep things in range. The nice thing about more precise control is repeatability, as I don't refire the pot unless the temp is about 3F below the mash target temp. Even so, the beers have come out great and pretty much on target with respect to OG and flavor profiles. BIAB is all about simplicity, though I do think it would be cool to automate things somewhat.

241 said:

How do you have the rasbpi set up - is there software you are running on it? USB temperature probe? How do you interface with the rasbpi? Which propane regulator valve are you using?

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All of the control programming is in python and the interface is developed using webpy and html5. I designed it to work with my tablet, phone or laptop. The temperature probe is a DS18B20 digital temperature sensor inside of a thermowell. The propane regulator valve is nothing special, it's the one that I bought with my burner back in 2002. I have been planning on posting pics, screenshots, and all of my source code in the automated brewing section at some point. I'll try and throw something together in the next few days. Check out jrubins thread to see where I got the idea from: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f235/any-interest-starting-new-open-source-automated-brewing-project-propane-380624/

Very cool tob, so your device essentially reads the temp of the liquid, and physically adjusts the actuator on your burner to either lower or raise the gas based on that reading?

But that also means gas is on the whole time during the mash - right? Or do you have a pilot system so that when gas is at 0% a flame can automatically be re-established when the reading drops below the threshold?

Passive insulation does wonders. My next effort is to try and add much, much more insulation on the mash-and-boil vessel. That is easier with electric heat.

241 said:

Very cool tob, so your device essentially reads the temp of the liquid, and physically adjusts the actuator on your burner to either lower or raise the gas based on that reading?

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Yes, I'm using a PID algorithm to adjust the burner in order to maintain the temperature.

241 said:

But that also means gas is on the whole time during the mash - right? Or do you have a pilot system so that when gas is at 0% a flame can automatically be re-established when the reading drops below the threshold?

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The temperature control works the best if the burner is on during the whole mash, but I have to leave the top off of my keggle so that the temperature doesn't continuously rise. I do not have a pilot on my burner, but I do have an electric spark module form a gas range that is used to automatically ignite the burner. I have programmed a minimum propane valve position so that the burner stays lit, and the burner automatically gets shut off if the temperature gets 0.5 deg F greater than the desired temperature. The burner will automatically relight itself when the temperature drops back down to the setpoint if it had been shut off.

Hey Tob77, thanks for the shout out
What are you using to attach the servo to the valve, shapelok ?

To the OP, have you thought about automatically stirring rather than recirculating? Is there some advantage to recirculating? I found during my first foray into BIAB that the mash was so thin, stirring was a real option.

Just a thought ...

jrubins said:

Hey Tob77, thanks for the shout out
What are you using to attach the servo to the valve, shapelok ?

To the OP, have you thought about automatically stirring rather than recirculating? Is there some advantage to recirculating? I found during my first foray into BIAB that the mash was so thin, stirring was a real option.

Just a thought ...

Click to expand...

I used InstaMorph which is a generic form of shapelok that I found on Amazon. Thanks again for the idea and inspiration

I think that a well mixed mash is very important any time that you are adding heat. I arranged the output of my pump in a whirlpool like position to obtain the best possible mixing. I think that an auto mixer could work even better than recirculation as long as you did it in a way that didn't tangle up the bag.

jrubins said:

To the OP, have you thought about automatically stirring rather than recirculating? Is there some advantage to recirculating? I found during my first foray into BIAB that the mash was so thin, stirring was a real option.

Just a thought ...

Click to expand...

It's a good suggestion. I haven't explored automated stirring, might give that some thought as well. I have a nice bag fitted to my pot depth and diameter, so I wouldn't be concerned too much with it getting caught in a mixer of some sort.

No offense to your technical solution as I considered one too. But I ended up going a KISS route to maintaining mash temps that works well for me:

After heating to 1-2 degrees above strike temp, I turn off the burner, insert my basket/bag, put the lid on, and wrap my kettle in a jacket I made of 4 layers of Reflectix BP24025 insulation. I also made a lid cover from 4 layers of Reflectix too. My lid also has 2 small holes in it; one for my mash (potato masher style) paddle and another for my remote thermoworks thermometer. I let the heated water and basket become isothermal for a few minutes, then remove the lid and it's insulation and mash-in. I replace the lid/insulation with my mash paddle sticking through the hole in the lid and begin the mash. I stir periodically during the mash without lifting the lid. With this setup, I'm able to maintain my mash temps within 1-2 degrees F over 90 minutes in a 50 degree garage without a problem. Setup and cleanup are easy too.

Just a thought.
SteveO

I finally got around to posting some more details and source code for my setup in the automated brewing forum.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f235/raspberry-pi-brew-controller-451059/

edit: removing

RE: “would love to add a tower of power controller, RIMS tube, an element or a control panel to my setup, but it just isn't in the budget unfortunately - and I can't find any low-priced alternatives. …”

The 72,000BTU output burner quickly heats the water to temperature for strike and boil. However, the same high-energy output makes it a bit difficult to subsequently precisely control the mash temperature on intermittent low heat, and also requires “minding the pot”. Like you, the automatic intermittent propane ignition, “isn't in the budget”; and also seems not the optimal tool to be left unattended.

Thus this modified application of HERMS for mash temperature control was undertaken to avoid the potential disadvantages of the RIMS-tube heating element directly contacting the wort. Recently posted here (Shiny bright stainless steel: pictures + brewery video):
www.homebrewtalk.com/f244/biab-herms-via-outboard-rims-tube-build-458429/