Whats going on with these breakers?

I was looking at my home main electrical panel yesterday and saw that I have what looks like 2 linked breakers. The picture below shows the breakers. Because my ipad has a horrible camera here is what is written on these particular breakers:

Two linked breakers labelled 20 on the toggle switch. The upper breaker says 'BRYANT Type BR'. The next line says 'BR 220' and then 'CU-AL' (which I understand). The lower breaker says 'Common Trip'.

Now... in my house I have nothing that requires 220 and haven't seen a 220 outlet except for an old, un-connected 3-prong dryer outlet.

I suppose I need to take the face off the panel and see where those lines go.

Question: If those breakers do offer 220v service, is the amp limit 20? What is the best way to wire a GFCI outlet into that system so I can brew electrically? Is 20 amps enough?... I thought 30 was the common requirement.

By the way - 'Common Trip' is a great beer name. N_G

That main breaker actually switches two hot lines that often alternate I. The rest of the panel so every other 120v breaker uses power from one leg and the other breakers use the other leg... this design also often let's you use a double breaker anywhere else I. The panel and obtain power from each leg.

EDIT I failed to see the 2 pole breaker directly under the main and thought that was the breaker in question...

Hey N_G,
That is probably for a prior large wall or window A/C unit?
Maybe a small water heater?

Common trip means that if either line has an overcurrent condition, both sides of the breaker open.

That breaker as is, is good for ~3800 watts of continuous power.

Yes, you can wire it to a double 20A GFCI breaker.
You can actually feed a couple single 20A GFCI's too.

You'll have to get more specific with your intentions and we can guide you in the right direction.

'da Kid

I think it was for a through wall AC unit that was missing when we moved in years ago.. the previous owner had installed a stained glass window in a spot that probably used to be for the AC... so you are right about that.

I guess I would like to increase this breaker to 30 amps so I could use a 4500 watt heating element. Is it possible to pull this one and pop in a 30 amp 2 pole breaker?
I would then send the very thick wires to a 30 amp GFCI outlet where I would brew. Is that possible?

The10mmKid said:

Hey N_G,
That is probably for a prior large wall or window A/C unit?
Maybe a small water heater?

Common trip means that if either line has an overcurrent condition, both sides of the breaker open.

That breaker as is, is good for ~3800 watts of continuous power.

Yes, you can wire it to a double 20A GFCI breaker.
You can actually feed a couple single 20A GFCI's too.

You'll have to get more specific with your intentions and we can guide you in the right direction.

'da Kid

Click to expand...

Installing two single pole GFIs for a 240V circuit won't work. The breakers will trip because the current flowing back through their common leads won't match the current flowing through their hot leads.

Also using two single breakers for a 240V circuit is dangerous. Both poles of your 240V breaker must be tied together so they trip together.

Sorry... I thought that a two pole breaker spans two slots and is tied together... am I mistaken? Could I use the correct shape 30-amp 220 or 240 breaker and install this here?

Yes, you can swap out a circuit breaker with a higher rating. However, you must make sure those 'very thick wires' are sized to handle the current.
30A requires 10ga if I am not mistaken, the 20A breaker in there right now probably has 12ga wire.

So... assuming I've picked the right form factor, could this one go in there? http://www.lowes.com/pd_94442-82364...pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=br+30+amp+240&facetInfo=

I didnt see the double pole 220v breaker below the main...yes you can pull it and install the 220 gfci breaker there.

I have the same type of box in my house.

nutty_gnome said:

Sorry... I thought that a two pole breaker spans two slots and is tied together... am I mistaken? Could I use the correct shape 30-amp 220 or 240 breaker and install this here?

Click to expand...

yes... there are type main types of breakers though and they arent interchangable.. you need to find out which type your box uses. and then you want one 30a 2 pole breaker... dont use the unsafe incorrect method mentioned above... it does not work correctly and it wont meet codes for that reason. that is what my electrical friend told me when I asked the same question. without the breakers being tied together you can have an unsafe dangerous situation where half the power is out to your panel but the otherside is not. this can damage things as well like a brownout.

nutty_gnome said:

So... assuming I've picked the right form factor, could this one go in there? http://www.lowes.com/pd_94442-82364...pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=br+30+amp+240&facetInfo=

Click to expand...

Yes, that is the correct 'style' of double breaker for 30A of 230V.

The brands are pretty specific. It will fit or not. No mods are ever accepted nor needed. You may need a 'Murray' style.

You will absolutely have to make sure you use #10 gauge wire. Again, no taking any shortcuts.

You'll need some GFCI protection somewhere on this circuit.

'da Kid

Oh, and be very careful inside the box as you will be working dangerously close to the main feed wires. Those are the really "very thick wires" that if touched could be life ending . . . . . .just saying. :cross:

yeah... I opened the box tonight... and I was like holy 5hit. look at this mess. Everything is solid wire and its all tighter than a nun's ____. I would have to take the house off-line remove the old breakers and put in new ones... run 10-3 wire and install a spa panel and wow.. propane seems pretty damn simple right about now.... Maybe 2 or 3 dedicated 120v circuits to power 2 or 3 120v heaters would be better......

nutty_gnome said:

yeah... I opened the box tonight... and I was like holy 5hit. look at this mess. Everything is solid wire and its all tighter than a nun's ____. I would have to take the house off-line remove the old breakers and put in new ones... run 10-3 wire and install a spa panel and wow.. propane seems pretty damn simple right about now.... Maybe 2 or 3 dedicated 120v circuits to power 2 or 3 120v heaters would be better......

Click to expand...

It looks scary but doing mine was actually pretty simply... the just pop the old breaker out and then disconnect old wires going to it. find were the old wires go into your panel and remove and replace with 10/3 (which is actually 4 wire) and hook them up in reversre order... you can always run the wire to the panel and pay an electrician an hours labor to connect the breaker too....
its going to be more work running 2-3 dedicated 120v lines and just as dangerous so I dont see any logic in that.

The 20-amp double pole breaker in positions 1 & 3 is switched on. Is it still wired? Where is it going? Assuming it's going to the window where there once was an air conditioner, can you see the box, do you know if the wires are properly terminated? If you aren't using it, at the very least, I'd switch it off and cover the switch with some tape so that no one else in the house turns it on. There's no upside to having that circuit live.

I didn't know that 10-3 had 4 wires. Is that 2 for power, one for neutral and one for ground?

nutty_gnome said:

I didn't know that 10-3 had 4 wires. Is that 2 for power, one for neutral and one for ground?

Click to expand...

That's correct.

nutty_gnome said:

yeah... I opened the box tonight... and I was like holy 5hit. look at this mess. Everything is solid wire and its all tighter than a nun's ____. I would have to take the house off-line remove the old breakers and put in new ones... run 10-3 wire and install a spa panel and wow.. propane seems pretty damn simple right about now.... Maybe 2 or 3 dedicated 120v circuits to power 2 or 3 120v heaters would be better......

Click to expand...

Well at least you know your options.

I'm in your boat with a stuffed panel and a future expansion down the road.

Until then, I'm out on the turkey fryer and a 1500W 'heat stick' plugged into the back porch GFCI.

It works so well, I can't believe it's not the rave of HBT. shhhhhhhh

I'm doing full 6-6.5 gallon boils.

'da Kid

The10mmKid said:

Hey N_G,
That is probably for a prior large wall or window A/C unit?
Maybe a small water heater?

Common trip means that if either line has an overcurrent condition, both sides of the breaker open.

That breaker as is, is good for ~3800 watts of continuous power.

Yes, you can wire it to a double 20A GFCI breaker.
You can actually feed a couple single 20A GFCI's too.

You'll have to get more specific with your intentions and we can guide you in the right direction.

'da Kid

Click to expand...

Before going to the effort and expense of ripping apart your walls, panel and buy bigger cable/breakers - A correctly installed 20A circuit should be able to supply 4800W of power (240*20=4800W), which should give you enough for a 4500W element and a bit of an overhead for a pump, indicators, etc.
There is no need to increase the design load by 125% unless the load is supplied continously for 3 hours or more.
As long as you understand that you can not run the 4500 element at 100% on for greater than 3 hours your 20A circuit should be sufficient

Currently (haha, an Ohm's law pun!) the wires associated with this 240 20 amp breaker are going nowhere. So I would need to replace the wires in any event. I suppose I would choose to the largest gauge that can fit on them. I am going to be mucking in the box this weekend to install a new 120 15 or 20 amp outlet for a TV. So we'll see how that relatively easy task goes. N_G

nutty_gnome said:

Currently (haha, an Ohm's law pun!) the wires associated with this 240 20 amp breaker are going nowhere. So I would need to replace the wires in any event. I suppose I would choose to the largest gauge that can fit on them.

Click to expand...

I would use the correct wire for the circuit you're installing.

nutty_gnome said:

I am going to be mucking in the box this weekend to install a new 120 15 or 20 amp outlet for a TV. So we'll see how that relatively easy task goes. N_G

Click to expand...

Even if you turn off the main breaker, de-energizing the hot bus bars, there will still be live power in your box where the mains come in from the street and everything above the main breaker will still be hot. So be very careful mucking around in there.

Are you installing a circuit for the TV, or just another outlet? If you run new wires to the box, they should be clamped where they enter the box. If you're running a new circuit just for the TV, there's no need to go with more than 15 amps 120v, and you probably need 14/2 wire. If you are running a 20 amp circuit, you need 12/2 wire. The 12/2 wire is thicker, it's more expensive, and a little harder to work with. Is your basement finished? If you're running power in unfinished space, it probably needs to be GFCI protected by code. You didn't mention where you're running the wire, but if it's not fished behind already closed walls, you need to support it with staples or something similar every 4.5 ft, and within 1 foot of every box you install.

I'd recommend getting a book and learning more about wiring and the Electrical Code before running anything. Be safe!

I understand that flipping the main doesn't turn off the power prior to the main.
I intend to add a dedicated breaker for a modest TV/cablebox/dvd/small speaker set where there is no outlet currently. It is upstairs in a set of built-in bookcases. When the house was built, no one could conceive of a TV let alone put one in that area... so there are no outlets. It is very very easy to get to the area from the basement. A few years ago, I had an electrician put in a dedicated 20 amp breaker and single outlet for an air conditioner outlet near this bookcase. so I intend to follow what was done previously with 14 gauge wire and then go past that outlet by about 6 feet. If I can basically duplicate what the electrician did and add a GFCI outlet I think it ought to be ok. I'm always open to suggestions. The TV and sound stuff will be powered through a multi-outlet surge protector used for televisions.

Oh yeah.... when the electrician put in the outlet a few years back, he also made changes to ensure the outlets down in the unfinished basement were tied to GFCIs. I know the ones on the walls were, I am not so sure about the ones mounted up on the ceilings.... but I haven't had an issue with that yet. Everything I regularly use goes on the GCFI circuits in the basement.

If the TV is in the living room, I don't think you need GFCI. They keep expanding what needs GFCI (bathrooms, kitchens, garage, basement and exterior locations) and bedrooms need arc-fault now, but haven't gotten to the living room or den yet.

I think you are right about not needing it, but I'm going to wire it in for peace of mind.

I'd be concerned about nuisance trips on the circuit (second to last section in this link). Will you have access to the test and reset buttons after the TV equipment is in the bookshelf?

Yep, the TV is on an articulating mount. I will read the link

So I installed 3 single gang surface mount outlet boxes on three shelves in the bookcase. Polarity, continuity, grounding, and operational testing went fine. The next big thing is to wire it to the breaker box.