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Old 08-26-2010, 03:24 PM   #11
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You have to realize something about PACman yeast. It is fermented at different temps at Rogue, depending on the beer they are brewing. Even as low as 60 degrees.

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Originally Posted by Byo magazine
The Rogue Says: Ferment and Condition at Cooler Temperatures
“Yeast is a good thing, and cooler is better. Even with our proprietary ‘Pacman’ ale yeast, we ferment at temperatures as low as 60 degrees Fahrenheit,” says John, adding that regardless of the yeast strain, constant temperature control will improve beer quality. With many strains, John suggests fermenting on the low side of the yeast’s optimum temperature range. This will create a smoother profile, with reduced fermentation esters —compounds that make a finished beer smell “fruity.”

Cooler fermentations will require slightly extended fermentation and conditioning periods, but this allows the flavors in big beers — styles with higher malt, alcohol and hop levels — to meld and mellow while remaining in contact with the yeast.
From the Wyeast website:

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“Pacman is really great yeast; everything about it is good. Pacman attenuates well, is alcohol tolerant, and it produces beers with no diacetyl if the beer is well made. It’s very flocculent, which makes it a great choice for bottle conditioning. I ferment almost all my beers at 60° F; once in a while for certain styles I’ll ferment as high as 70° F, but never higher. Use lots of oxygen, and a high pitch rate. I never repitch past the 6th generation, and I always use Wyeast Yeast Nutrient.”
- John Maier, Brewmaster, Rogue Ales www.rogue.com


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Old 08-26-2010, 03:44 PM   #12
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I know revvy, I have read all that literature from Rogue, in addition to a few podcasts with John M from Rogue. They ferment at 60 for everything but the barley wine supposedly which goes at 70 degrees.

I am reporting good success and clean fermentations as high as 72 degrees with pacman. However, my pacman is now 3rd generation and could very well be conditioned/mutated to ferment clean under my conditions.

I don't consider 60 to be super cold. There is just so much interest in using ale yeasts at lager temps, not sure I understand why when lager yeast is available.



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Old 08-26-2010, 03:52 PM   #13
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Why get your panties in a wad over what other people do?

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Old 08-26-2010, 05:00 PM   #14
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Why get your panties in a wad over what other people do?
No panties here....just trying to make some conversation
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Old 08-26-2010, 06:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prosper View Post
In general, though, I really don't understand the fascination with ultra-clean american-style ale yeasts. I do prefer to use slightly more characterful yeasts on the cooler side of their working ranges. 1272 is nice, and 65-68F (beer temp, not room temp!) is just perfect.
It depend on what I want to taste. If I'm looking to taste some clean malt, or have a crisp bitterness in a beer, then I don't want a bunch of esters from the yeast competing with those flavors. For some styles I do want the esters and then I adjust things as necessary to that end
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Old 08-26-2010, 06:12 PM   #16
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I think it is almost impossible to compare fermenting temperatures of a home brewer to that of a commercial operation. Too many factors like size of fermenter, geometry, yeast pitching rates, etc. go into the mix. So Rogues 60F might give different results than our 60F.

I started to get caught up in the fermenting colder thing, but stopped out at 64F as my low point with your normal ale yeast and usually shoot for 67-68F.

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Old 08-26-2010, 07:54 PM   #17
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I think all the talk you see of people making jet fuel beer at 80+ degrees drives people towards the other end where the results seem far less disastrous.

Charts that show measures of various characteristics over a range of fermentation temps would be pretty interesting, such as Diacetal, sulfur, phenols, etc. Alternate copies with a d-rest.

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Old 08-26-2010, 08:08 PM   #18
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because with certain strains you can get results similar to lagers....without taking as long as lagers or d-rests, etc.
also if your using an icebath, its not a big deal if you forget to swap out the frozen bottles one night verus if you were using a lager strain via frozenbottles in water

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Old 08-27-2010, 02:08 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by permo View Post
I have settled on Pacman yeast as my house strain, and people make such a big stink about this yeast, and WLP029 among others, because they can ferment cool. I don't understand fully, why you would want to ferment top cropping ale yeast that cool. You get increased diacetyl (spelling), slower fermentations, longer lag times, potential under attenuation, the yeast may drop out...etc..etc. All because you think you are going to get a "cleaner" beer.

My experience, with both pacman and WLP029, is that you will get your cleanest beers between 65-70 degrees, with plenty of nutrient, O2 and plenty of healthy yeast from a proper starter. Make the yeast happy and they will give you clean, crisp beers..... if you want lager beer, get lager yeast and temperature control.

my two cents for the day.

I ferment all of my ales on the cooler range (especially pacman and nottingham), and I'm one of those who must have a slower fermentation, potential underattenuation, diacteyl laden, crappy beer I guess. all because I think I'm going to get a "cleaner" beer. But what do I know? I'm just a lowly homebrewer. If you're getting great results at 70 and can criticize my techniques, then I must be wrong. Good thing you'll never have to drink my pathetic attempts at ales.
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Old 08-27-2010, 11:42 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by permo View Post
I have settled on Pacman yeast as my house strain, and people make such a big stink about this yeast, and WLP029 among others, because they can ferment cool. I don't understand fully, why you would want to ferment top cropping ale yeast that cool. You get increased diacetyl (spelling), slower fermentations, longer lag times, potential under attenuation, the yeast may drop out...etc..etc. All because you think you are going to get a "cleaner" beer.

My experience, with both pacman and WLP029, is that you will get your cleanest beers between 65-70 degrees, with plenty of nutrient, O2 and plenty of healthy yeast from a proper starter. Make the yeast happy and they will give you clean, crisp beers..... if you want lager beer, get lager yeast and temperature control.

my two cents for the day.

Seems to me if you're getting diacetyl, under attenuation, and the yeast is dropping out just from fermenting on the cool side then you may not be 'pitching plenty of healthy yeast from a proper starter'...'with plenty of nutrient <and> O2'. Lots of people ferment cool and don't have those problems. Just clean, crisp beers.

I don't think general statements like 'slower fermentations' or 'longer lag times' being necessarily bad are correct. Relative to what? You typically don't want the yeast going total gangbusters...you want it slower than that. And a lag time of 24 hours vs. 6 or whatever isn't really that big of a deal imo.

Then there are some of us that like to start cool (sometimes really cool when pitching) and then let it warm a bit as fermentation winds down. But I must admit, I do that because I'm lazy and don't want to keep swapping out frozen water bottles/ice packs...and I can get away with it.


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