I believe I'm stuck

All,

I brewed a beer recently that had missed target og by a few points lower than it should have. It's been sitting in the fermenter for a week and I decided if measure og today. When I opened the bucket, the krausen hadn't fallen yet but I did a reading anyway. It's stuck. It is supposed to finish at 1.007 - 1.010 and it's sitting at 1.020. It used the blowoff tube for a couple of days too.

So what I've done now is increased the temp by 3 degrees to see if that would help. If this does work, am I going to possibly have any weird flavors? If so, should I just throw this batch out? I bought a mill today, so my next batch should be a lot better anyway.

The yeast I used was WLP001. I had it fermenting at 65 degrees.

Thanks!


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Oh and I'm thinking I could repitch some US-05 if I needed...


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It's only been a week. You still have kraeusen going on. Why panic??

frazier said:

it's only been a week. You still have kraeusen going on. Why panic??

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+1

frazier said:

It's only been a week. You still have kraeusen going on. Why panic??

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+1 as well. If it still has a krausen then its still working. And at one week its not likely to be completely done anyway, krausen or not, so have patience.

And to answer your other question the raise in temp shouldn't hurt.

I was actually at the low end from what I remember for that yeast. I've had us-05 be completely done in a week, so is this a slower yeast? I've also read on the forums that krausen can still be on top from some yeasts even though it's completed.


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kenpotf said:

I was actually at the low end from what I remember for that yeast. I've had us-05 be completely done in a week, so is this a slower yeast? I've also read on the forums that krausen can still be on top from some yeasts even though it's completed.


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Not that strain. When it's done, the krausen falls well.

Brewed a pale ale with that yeast a few weeks ago. Needed a blowoff tube for 10 days so it's probably not done yet. Wait a few more days and take another gravity reading to see if it's changing or not.


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Yooper said:

Not that strain. When it's done, the krausen falls well.

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Yooper...I've read some other threads on here about swirling the bucket to get the yeast back in suspension and warm it up. I did that before I posted, so did I screw anything up by doing that?

Thanks everyone for the replies. I'm going to wait and do another reading this Thursday. If it's still stuck, I'm not even going to attempt to salvage it. I was disappointed from the get go with this one, and I'll just redo the recipe once I get my mill. By Beersmith, I only got 54% efficiency anyway, and others on here think I got a bad crush from the lhbs. This would just give me a reason to dump this one and call it a lesson learned...

Thanks!

There is absolutely no reason at this point for you to dump the beer. You already spent money and time to make this brew, why not just let it finish out and see what it becomes. It may very well be the best beer you have ever brewed, but by dumping it, you would never know. I have had problems in the past with efficiency, but that only led to a lower abv, not a bad tasting beer. Give it time, and don,t give up on it!

Okay...well hypothetically, what should I do if it hasn't moved by Thursday? Repitch?

kenpotf said:

Okay...well hypothetically, what should I do if it hasn't moved by Thursday? Repitch?

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If it hasn't moved, let it sit for another week in a warm place, rousing the yeast a couple times a day. Taking measurements can introduce infections, so limit touching the beer.

If it hasn't changed after the additional 2 weeks then it's simply done for a fact. Perhaps a lot of unfermentables in the beer.

kenpotf said:

Yooper...I've read some other threads on here about swirling the bucket to get the yeast back in suspension and warm it up. I did that before I posted, so did I screw anything up by doing that?

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You didn't hurt it probably, but you didn't help. That particular yeast strain is not one to fall out quickly, and you have evidence that's it's fermenting (krausen).

Walk away until the krausen falls, the beer will start to clear- and then check the gravity.

I have this beer in a bucket, so I can't tell if it fell without opening it. What's the best way to rouse the yeast back up? I started by lifting one side of the bucket off of the freezer floor and tried to "roll" it around. Then I thought it may be better to simply leave the bucket on the floor of the freezer and twist it gently like a washer. I don't want the beer to get oxygen in it by splashing it around....

kenpotf said:

I have this beer in a bucket, so I can't tell if it fell without opening it. What's the best way to rouse the yeast back up? I started by lifting one side of the bucket off of the freezer floor and tried to "roll" it around. Then I thought it may be better to simply leave the bucket on the floor of the freezer and twist it gently like a washer. I don't want the beer to get oxygen in it by splashing it around....

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If it has krausen, it's fermenting. There is no reason to "rouse" the yeast- it's got krausen, and it's active. That yeast strain is well known to not flocculate early, and it will finish fermenting and the krausen will drop. If you can't see in the bucket, that's ok. Wait a few days, and then open it a bit if you have to see what it's doing.

kenpotf said:

Thanks everyone for the replies. I'm going to wait and do another reading this Thursday. If it's still stuck, I'm not even going to attempt to salvage it. I was disappointed from the get go with this one, and I'll just redo the recipe once I get my mill. By Beersmith, I only got 54% efficiency anyway, and others on here think I got a bad crush from the lhbs. This would just give me a reason to dump this one and call it a lesson learned...

Thanks!

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If you let it finish up, and rack the beer off the yeast cake, you could always leave an inch of beer over the yeast cake and make another batch and pitch directly on top of the cake. Basically, see what it ends up fermenting out at and don't waste the yeast. You should get a vigorous 2nd batch out of it.
That way even if you are disappointed in your first beer you just made a big ol starter.

Aonghus said:

If you let it finish up, and rack the beer off the yeast cake, you could always leave an inch of beer over the yeast cake and make another batch and pitch directly on top of the cake. Basically, see what it ends up fermenting out at and don't waste the yeast. You should get a vigorous 2nd batch out of it.
That way even if you are disappointed in your first beer you just made a big ol starter.

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I plan on brewing again in a couple of weeks. Should I wait a couple of weeks before moving this beer into a keg and then reuse the yeast for the next beer? Is it going to have any off flavors on the second one if I don't wash the yeast?

kenpotf said:

I plan on brewing again in a couple of weeks. Should I wait a couple of weeks before moving this beer into a keg and then reuse the yeast for the next beer? Is it going to have any off flavors on the second one if I don't wash the yeast?

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No, no off flavors, but a whole cake is a HUGE overpitch, and I wouldn't do that. There are yeast calculators out there (mrmalty.com is one) that can help you with the proper amount of yeast to pitch, but definitely about a pint would be the max instead of the whole yeast cake.

That brings up another question I've had - can you have too much yeast? Wouldn't whatever isn't used just fall to the bottom?

kenpotf said:

That brings up another question I've had - can you have too much yeast? Wouldn't whatever isn't used just fall to the bottom?

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Yes, you can definitely use too much yeast! Overpitching can create a bland flavor, under (or over-) attenuation, etc- but it's less common in homebrewing than underpitching. There is a lot of information out there on underpitching and overpitching, but here is a brief article on proper pitching rates that simplifies the process and the idea: http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Just like you want to use the proper amount of seasoning in cooking, you want to use the proper amount of ingredients in beer brewing.

Yooper said:

Just like you want to use the proper amount of seasoning in cooking, you want to use the proper amount of ingredients in beer brewing.

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Definitely Yooper hit it on the money. Over pitched beers taste thin, watery, and don't have much malt characteristic. As a result it makes your hops more harsh. As soon as I started pitching the correct amount, my beers tasted more full, and my attenuation went up.

You're over thinking things. Close the lid and leave your beer at room temp for another two weeks. Take your gravity reading then bottle. The yeast will have finished by then... and unless you're over 10% alcohol, which you arent if you only hit 50% efficiency, adding additional yeast or swirling your fermenter won't do a thing.

And whatever you do, dont dump it.

Thanks everyone! Good information

Alright everyone here's an update. I left it completely alone for a week. I went to open it up this morning to see if the krausen fell, and I was hit with a "fingernail polish remover" smell. It smells like paint thinner/acetone. I'm assuming this stuff needs to be thrown out, and no, I haven't tasted it...

I'd taste it first...

Bamsdealer said:

I'd taste it first...

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I would too. Smells aren't conclusive and can sometimes be misleading. What's the gravity now?

For future reference, you can check the status of the krausen in a bucket by shining a flashlight up against the side of the bucket.

Oh, and check your mash thermometer. I had a floater once that was off by 7*F. If the mash temp was too warm, you're not likely to make it to expected FG.

1.020 isn't horrible either. I'm just finishing up a keg of coffee porter that hung at 1.024. Attempts to get it down farther (warming, rousing, small starter at high krausen) only got it to 1.022. Kegged it with cold brewed coffee and it was delicious.

Hmmm. It hit 1.010 and tasted fine albeit a bit hoppy. The ibu was around 140, so I expected that. It's not overly bitter and there's a sweetness that I can taste from the chocolate malt. Should I keg it and keep it? Let me ask this - is there a chance that it could taste fine now but go rancid in a few weeks?


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Oh, the other thing was that it seems to have only hit 4.7% abv, but it seems to smell a lot stronger than that. There are also several sugar granules in the sample that I took. I'm sure that will fall out and clear up with time, but for now it seems like there's just a lot there...

kenpotf said:

Oh, the other thing was that it seems to have only hit 4.7% abv, but it seems to smell a lot stronger than that. There are also several sugar granules in the sample that I took. I'm sure that will fall out and clear up with time, but for now it seems like there's just a lot there...

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That's not sugar, it's probably yeast.

At a 140 IBU, that's pretty hoppy. Since it tastes good, keg it, carb it and enjoy. It'll probably taste even better after a couple weeks in the keg.

You don't think it could go rancid in a couple of weeks? I mean, if I'm smelling that smell now, but it tastes okay, what could the smell be if it's not an infection? I used wlp001 as the yeast, and it was the first time I'd used it so I'm not sure if that's a normal trait...

I'd hate to keg it and have it go bad in a couple of weeks.

The smell could mean something or it could mean nothing bad at all. If it starts tasting bad after a couple of weeks in the keg, then toss it and clean the keg thoroughly.

Thanks for all of your help

I siphoned the beer into the keg tonight, and I found the source of the smell. The blowoff bucket had mold in it that I noticed last night. I decided that I would pull that out and clean it. I pulled the bucket out last night and smelled the beer, but there was no acetone smell. I put the bucket in for the night and decided that I would siphon it tonight. When I pulled the bucket out, I noticed a layer of mold that was underneat the bucket in the freezer. I believe that's the source of the smell and not the beer itself. I tasted the beer tonight, and it tastes pretty awesome. I hope that I'm right, but the beer itself smelled perfectly fine, looks like a deep orangish-brown which is what I was going for. Thank you for saving me from throwing it out!

kenpotf said:

I tasted the beer tonight, and it tastes pretty awesome. I hope that I'm right, but the beer itself smelled perfectly fine, looks like a deep orangish-brown which is what I was going for. Thank you for saving me from throwing it out!

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If I happen make it over to McKinney before you kick the keg, I'll message you about trying a glass. Enjoy.

Yooper said:

Yes, you can definitely use too much yeast! Overpitching can create a bland flavor, under (or over-) attenuation, etc- but it's less common in homebrewing than underpitching.

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I agree. Mainly because Jamil says so

Not to hijack the OP's point, but where do you draw the line as to what constitutes "over pitching?" 10%? 20%? Higher?

And how do you know if you've over pitched without breaking out a microscope and counting cells? (Full disclosure, I don't own a microscope).

You can use mrmalty.com vs. yeastcalc.com and get completely different recommended pitching rates. For that matter, you can use different experts' recommended settings on yeast calc and get different results.

I usually call it good if my calculated starter regimen comes within a few million cells of what the calculators say is my optimal pitching rate (most of them are fairly close). Sometimes I am a few million over, sometimes under. But even the authors of those calculators will tell you that you're just "ball parking" if you're not counting viable cells with a reliable piece of scientific gear.

So for those of us who want to rely on the calculators and make the assumption that our sanitation, viability and process are getting us "close", at what point should you worry about over pitching?

Personally, I don't worry unless my calculated starter growth is more than 10% off either way from the recommendation on yeastcalc (I use the setting based on Jamil's anticipated growth rate with a stir plate).

Using this setting and trying to bring myself within 10% either way, I have never noticed any characters in my beers that you'd associate with over pitching.

I guess I'm just wondering whether there is a threshold we should be worrying about either way (over or under). My 10% rule of thumb seems to be working. As long as I stay in that margin, my beers attenuate well and I do not have fermentation derived flaws.

I am just wondering Yooper. Do you think that's a good margin? Would you widen it? Narrow it?







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kenpotf said:

Alright everyone here's an update. I left it completely alone for a week. I went to open it up this morning to see if the krausen fell, and I was hit with a "fingernail polish remover" smell. It smells like paint thinner/acetone. I'm assuming this stuff needs to be thrown out, and no, I haven't tasted it...

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I've made the mistake with my last few brews of sticking my nose in the bucket to get a whiff as I prepare to bottle. Surprise! It smells harsh and acidic, just like I should have expected from breathing in a bunch of CO2. I could have dumped those 30 gallons of beer, but I decided to bottle anyway, and lo and behold, they're great!