Belgeglin

I hesitated as to whether to post this in the mead forum or here, but my main question really is about yeast...

I've been thinking about a mead done with a Belgian yeast, and it will include some of the traditional spices (corriander seed and bitter orange) to make it a metheglin...

I really want that Belgian yeast character, a la your favorite saison or Belgian IPA, to shine through, but what yeast to use? I need something that will stand up to the OG / potential ABV of a mead starting at least 1.100 if not 1.110, and I don't want to end sweet. I generally prefer dry meads, and at most lightly semi-sweet (which would probably work with this idea), so I'm looking at ABV's of at least 12, if not 13 or 14%.

What yeast will give me that fruity/spicy Belgian feel and still tolerate up to 14% ABV? (Obviously I will be paying close attention to proper pitching rates by making a big starter and doing staggered nutrient additions, so the question refers to the yeast and it's abilities only, and assumes optimum conditions...)

Here's my second question while were at it: I use 1 oz of coriander seed and 1/2 oz of bitter orange peel in my usual saison recipe (5 gal batch size, ~ 7% ABV). Would you increase the amounts any for this idea? I usually do 6 gallon mead batches, so I'm considering a slightly increased volume, but also the increased ABV...do I need to up the ante with the spices to deal with a mead ABV?

I would use two strains: a character strain for the first part of fermentation, and a neutral strong strain to finish it off. Like how British brewers will often use their house ale strain to make barleywines, then finish it off with champagne yeast. So choose the belgian strain that looks best to you for your character, start the fermentation with that, and when it starts to die down add the strong attenuating strain.

Also, don't make the starter too large. Belgian strains produce more of their distinctive flavors when somewhat stressed. Make a big starter, but don't overpitch; if anything, underpitch a bit.

Spices; if anything, I would add less. Mead, even big mead, is less flavorful than most beers, so the quantity that works for that may be overpowering in a mead. If the flavor dies down too much, you can always infuse more of the spices in a bit of vodka/everclear (just enough to cover them, and then a bit more) for ten days or so. This will make a powerful flavoring extract that you can add slowly to the mead until it tastes right.

Great ideas! I had actually thought about the 2-strain technique, and may resort to this if necessary if I finish too sweet. Something like EC 1118 or Red Star champagne....

I hadn't even thought about dropping the spice load...I suppose you can always add more but can't get it out! Still, I'd think at least 1/2 to 3/4 oz of each wouldn't be overbearing...I'm going to be using wildflower honey, and it's a relatively strong flavored honey compared to a light honey like clover....

Interesting to think about intentionally underpitching a bit...I'll also be waiting a few months to brew this one (read: summer, North Carolina). I want to wait until my basement temps are in the low 70s to let the yeast really express it's esters. I know in the past that I've always like WLP 565, but I'd been afraid that it wouldn't handle the ABV.

Yeah, you'd have difficulty getting a saison yeast to go nearly that far. And you definitely would want the high temps for it. But saison flavors in a metheglin could be really nice.

Belgian Bastogne ale and Belgian Strong ale strains could even be used as drying-out strains, if you wanted to keep it all belgian yeast. Their alcohol tolerance would probably be right on the edge though, so wine yeasts would be safer.

Skyforger said:

Yeah, you'd have difficulty getting a saison yeast to go nearly that far. And you definitely would want the high temps for it. But saison flavors in a metheglin could be really nice.

Belgian Bastogne ale and Belgian Strong ale strains could even be used as drying-out strains, if you wanted to keep it all belgian yeast. Their alcohol tolerance would probably be right on the edge though, so wine yeasts would be safer.

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Yeah...most of the Belgian strains seem to top out at around 12% for the Wyeast strains (their strong ale 1388 is listed as 12-13%). Even the Trappist High Gravity strain 3787 is listed as 11-12%, but then they add "or higher," whatever that means...has anyone taken that strain to a higher level?

I never know what to make of the White Labs strains, as they don't actually give numbers for most of their strains' alcohol tolerances...just low, medium or high. The Bastongne (510) is listed as "high," but I just don't know what that means! Plus, the description is that this is a "cleaner" yeast, which is kind of the opposite of what I'm going for; ie, emphasizing the Belgian yeast character. One of the few that actually does reference a specific ABV is the WLP 530 Abbey Ale (the description notes possibility of 15% ABV tolerance...this strain is also listed as "high" tolerant, but I don't know if this degree of tolerance can be inferred to other yeasts with "high" listed as their tolerance.)

I'm still open to more suggestions, but I'm thinking that I might start with the 565 saison yeast that I've always liked, and then pitch in the 530 Abbey Ale after things start to slow.

Wyeast 3711 will eat everything and I bet would go over 12% easy. Its the easy saison yeast, no fussing around it just gets to work.

Temperature Range: 65-77F 18-25C
Alcohol Tolerance: ABV 12%

Houblon said:

Wyeast 3711 will eat everything and I bet would go over 12% easy. Its the easy saison yeast, no fussing around it just gets to work.

Temperature Range: 65-77F 18-25C
Alcohol Tolerance: ABV 12%

Click to expand...

HMMM...I like the description! "highly aromatic (estery), peppery, spicy and citrusy. This strain enhances the use of spices and aroma hops, and is extremely attenuative but leaves an unexpected silky and rich mouthfeel."

Sounds like it could be almost exactly what I could be looking for, and I have to admit, I didn't look into this strain previously! I think the remainder of the description: "...can also be used to re-start stuck fermentations or in high gravity beers" might add some credence to your bet that it would go over it's rated 12% in the right conditions...I'm thinking keep it warm, staggered nutrient additions, aggressive degassing.

Another thing to think about is whether or not I should consider starting with only part of the fermentable load, and then incrementally feed the rest over the first week or so of the primary...this supposedly can force yeast past their usual tolerance, but I've also read that it can cause off-flavors...I've not ever tried this before in this setting.

With some of my recipes, I routinely will add sugars late in beer making, and I like doing this especially with things like molasses that contribute flavor...you get more of the original flavors in the final product; however, this is still always well within the rated tolerance of the yeast. OTOH, I've also had at least one local mazer swear that incremental feeding is the best way to make a killer sack mead with a huge alcohol content. My gut feeling is that I'd rather see what a single strain could do and then re-pitch a second strain if necessary.

That yeast strain does sound like a good option. And it would be good to use a single strain if possible; less variables, more control. I'm not sure why later additions of ingredients would create off flavors; I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just saying I've never heard of this before.

So just to update: after a bit of thinking/reading (including large chunks of a marathon 47 page thread about 3711), I decided to go ahead and brew with that yeast. I had also done a saison with it, and really liked the results.
I decided to use 1 oz each of roughly crushed corriander seed and bitter orange peel. I steeped them in the warm mix of honey and a little water, and then added the bag to the primary carboy. I just bottled it...a little shy of 3 months from brew date. It came out incredibly well! The spice is definitely present but isn't overbearing, and the belgian yeast character comes through well also.
To answer some other questions, the 3711 took the brew from 1.100 to 1.005 in about 3-4 weeks. Final estimated ABV 12.7%. Will be aging it out in bottles a while, but I think this will be absolutely phenomenal next August on Mead Day...

arise, oh zombie thread...

any updates on how this belgeglin turned out? would you do this again, or do anything differently?