What makes people here say, "now thats a saison"?

smokinghole said:

Just curious...

What makes people here say, "now thats a saison"? Must it taste like DuPont? Can it have a strong brett character? Can it be sour? All pils/pale or can it be dark? What about no sugar adjunct? What about terminal gravity, what's acceptable now compared to when "Farmhouse Ales" was written?

Maybe this is a question destined to be its own thread.

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i believe this does merit its own thread, so let's do this...

smokinghole said:

What makes people here say, "now thats a saison"?

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for me:
- strong (some might say overwhelming) fruity ester profile, as well as generally prominent phenolic notes. phenols are more variable than the esters (from medium to high).
- very, very high attenuation. i can't think of a beer style that is dryer that doesn't involve bugs.
- high carbonation

reading my own criteria above, i ask myself: how is this different than a tripel? i know it when i taste it, but the above could apply to tripels as well. the main difference that comes to mind is the ester profile.

smokinghole said:

Must it taste like DuPont?

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nope, but it is the archetype. dupont has a fairly unique taste, there really aren't many other saison that taste like it. it's weird that a style has a unique archetype.

smokinghole said:

Can it have a strong brett character? Can it be sour?

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yes, and one can rightfully point out that brett'ed or soured saison are probably closer to the origins of the style than today's "clean" saisons. but the BJCP seems to think that brett and bugs need to be kept to a minimum, which is a shame.

smokinghole said:

All pils/pale or can it be dark?

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i'm kinda on the fence about that one. i like the "historical" definition of saison/farmhouse*, where farmers used whatever they had on hand to make a beer. so on the one hand, sure, why not dark malts. on the other, how many wallonian farmers had dark malts on hand? saison isn't a malt-driven style for me (with the possible exception of rye), so getting too much contribution from the malts could detract from the yeast.

*there's another kettle of fish... saison vs. farmhouse - is there a difference? what is an "american farmhouse" and how is it different from other farmhouse ales?

smokinghole said:

What about no sugar adjunct?

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it's less about the use of adjuncts or not, and more about the high attenuation. if you can dry out a beer that low without sugars, more power to you.

smokinghole said:

What about terminal gravity, what's acceptable now compared to when "Farmhouse Ales" was written?

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confession: i haven't read "farmhouse ales", so i'm not sure what is written there... what does the author suggest as acceptable numbers/ranges? personally, i aim for 1.005 or lower.

I agree, though really, I don't think the brewers themselves ( or any other Belgian brewer ) really gave, or give 2 hoots about if their beer conforms to a particular "style". Belgian and English beers are my 2 fave beers, and one of the reasons is that they don't particularly care strongly for brewing to a style. If it tastes good, it's good.

I've never understood the "it's a great beer, but it's not to style" type comments. In a comp, ok fair enough, but otherwise I don't give a **** if someone's schwarzbier is a touch too light if it tastes awesome.

When it says saison on the label and has that oh so elusive horse blanket smell in the background. But seriously, Dupont is the touchstone to me and saison is one of those food or beverage items that if you can get it past your nose, you will be quite pleased. It tastes MUCH better than it smells.

I think one of the things that make saisons so popular is that they traditionally have pretty loose guidelines, so they're open to experimentation.

That being said, I usually consider the following as typical characteristics:

- Very dry character
- High level of carbonation
- Moderate alcohol content (say 6-8% ABV)
- Prominent yeast character (sometimes with Brett, but not by definition)
- Pretty open guidelines on types of grains/adjuncts, but not overly malty.

jdm61 said:

When it says saison on the label and has that oh so elusive horse blanket smell in the background. But seriously, Dupont is the touchstone to me and saison is one of those food or beverage items that if you can get it past your nose, you will be quite pleased. It tastes MUCH better than it smells.

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I am just drinking my 2nd Dupont and you are right! It does smell like an old dirty blanket a horse or dog has been sleeping on. For me, the Dupont is a little too much like a Belgian for me. Just a little too pucker-forward. Colette, on the other hand, I really like.

The most important thing to me is that there needs to be a combination of noticeable dryness contrasted with assertive yeast/bugs character, which could be any combination of fruity, tart, funky, or sour (probably not too sour). I would want at least a little noble hop flavor and aroma involved too. I guess the balance of all these things is what makes it a saison to me.

If you're putting a recipe together, I would say keep it simple. Mostly pilsner malt for the grist with nothing darker than Vienna added (or maybe a little Munich) for complexity. Wheat or rye up to 20 percent can work well if you're into that kind of thing.

So to me here's what makes a beer a saison.

Dry
Low to moderate abv 4%-8% (though personally I'd say closer to 6% as a top end)
Hoppy/noticeable hops bitterness
Very pale to amber in color
High carb (I bottle condition to ~3.5vol)
I really believe Brett belongs, not all Brett tastes like Orval funk
I prefer some noticeable acidity

I think of saison as the soft drink of the beer world. Refreshingly dry, tart/sour, and effervescent. I tend to just brew with pale and pils and just toss in some spelt or rye. Depending on culture changes how I hop it. If I am souring it I will hop to about 20ibu with fresh hops and then toss in an equal amount of aged hops. If just using Brett I hop closer to 35ibus. I stick around 1.050 or lower and have brewed as low as 1.037 with great results. I have a 4.8% soured one that I bottled a few months ago and brewed back in sept. I also tend to dry hop most batches I make.

I think it's a great style because of how it can vary. Saison is one of my favorites to brew and a favorite to drink. The yeast is forgiving of temps and pitch levels, what's not to like if you are a fan of musty yeast aromas?

For me there are three requirements for a saison.

It must have an expressive yeast. A combination of fruity esters and spicy phenolics.

Very dry. There should be no sweetness in the finish of this beer.

Extremely quaffable. Regardless of the abv you should be able to drink pint after pint.

Well this made me want to check my 2014 sour version. Not that this pic tells you much but for a sour it actually held foam for a while.

it's that smell that reminds me my dog needs a bath... But a well carbonated, very dry, peppery finish to the Saison does it for me.
Bob

AWESOME idea for a thread.

For me there are many aspects of a beer like Saison. So many different variables and so much can go into it. Since I discovered Saison it has been my favorite style. Most of the guidelines given I will agree with. But I tend to never look at a guideline when I brew them.

I like my Saisons to contain most, but not all at any given time, of these characters:

- Dry. Some examples here brewed in the US are just t00 sweet and sometimes too full bodied for me to even consider them a Saison. Body is fine but when it feels like I'm chewing it or can taste the malt sweetness I'm not a fan.

- Earthiness. This can be the spice from the yeast or maybe some of the spice characteristics of a hop you are using. I tend to stick with EKG, Hallertau, Styrian Goldings or Saaz with most of my Saisons. Those all can lend to a spicy almost peppery flavor and aroma at times. I won't rule out other hop varietals just because they aren't traditional. If those hops would have been around back in the day, people would have used them.

- Yeast Flavors. Spicy, lemony, tart and earthy yeast strains are my favorite. One of my favorite Saisons I've ever brewed was done with WLP550 and that was when I was still a n00b at brewing. (still am relatively) But, since then I've used a good chunk of the commercially available strains and now have a few favorites. I do change when I'm wanting a specific flavor to shine from one of the strains but in general I use Wyeast 3711, WLP565 and The Yeast Bay Wallonian Farmhouse. The latter being newer and impressive.

- Brett. While not all Saisons contain a strain of Brett, I really enjoy the ones that do. Personally I brew several different Saisons a year and the ones that stick out as favorites are ones that have Brett. Brux and Claussenii have become my favorites to keep cultures around. Brett also helps to have the beer age and change over time. A beer I did with Claussenii last year is still developing and changing so that I'm sad I'm running out of bottles.

- Carbonation. High carbonation somewhere around 2.7-3.5 is usually the norm. I hover around 3 and like the results. I almost always bottle condition as well because I like the changes the beers go through and I feel it's better for Brett to change in an environment under pressure.

- Variables. I've never been afraid to experiment with my brewing and most of my friends and fellow brewers will tell you they have never seen me brew the same beer twice. Some of that is attributed to my changing in tastes and ideas but it's not all true as I've re-brewed some beers and tweaked them a bit. I love that I can add in some Lacto and make a tart or slightly sour Saison. Maybe add some oats and spelt in to get a different flavor and mouthfeel. Oats are often overlooked for Saison I believe. Having that added mouthfeel and having a super dry beer makes it amazingly refreshing and easy to drink. Saison being such an open style of beer makes it one of the funnest beers to play around with. You can dry hop it, blend it with different batches, blend some sour beer in there, add spices or fruit, or you can brew a Saison for each season.


Those are all my loose "guidelines" for what I like in a Saison. I'm sure there are other things I've forgotten. I need to brew more!!!