I have been attacked in the BN's show about mash efficiency

Revvy said:

but wonder if it is more the fact that Kai has been a regular guest on Basic Brewing Radio than anything else.

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Nail, head, hit, Revvy!

On hearing the relevant part of the show I had the impression that the Kai bashing was a secondary incident compared to the ego raising going on between the two. It seemed to me that certain people, for some reason felt a need to consolidate their position as radio brewing gurus.

I don't think it was as much about bashing another esteemed brewer as it was about attempting to confirm their own superiority in front of their fans.

Frankly, I found it a little disappointing, as they knew who they were putting down, yet glibly lumped Kai in with the rest of the lesser "Interweb" mortals such as myself.

Kaiser said:

Thanks for the overwhelming support guys. I'm pretty much over the whole thing. What has been said had been said and Kabouter might be right that he may have had just a bad day and snapped. But the similarity of that show to another show keeps me thinking that it was planned as a response to our discussion.

To be honest, an animosity between me and Jamil had been growing for a while. At least I perceived it as such....

That growing animosity did lead me to the occasional stab ant John and Jamil but I did not think that I ever fell out of line.

But now it's all out and I can move on.
Kai

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It usually is a two way street... my marriage has taught me that!!

I would love to see you all share a brew and a conversation. We all have our different joys in the hobby and in life.

Kai, thanks for all you do for the hobby....

and the same to Jamil and John Palmer...

It blows me away that we all have such access to so many folks sharing their experience. :rockin:

The BN forum seems a lonely place. Only two people have replied to Kai's post since it went up 24 hrs ago. Look at the responses on here. Perhaps one of the best things about HBT is the sheer volume of homebrewing talent it has attracted. Not only do you get quick responses to questions, but you get responses from a variety of people who almost all know what they are talking about! I think I will get that premium membership now.

FlyGuy said:

Kaiser, sorry to hear about this. Don't let Jamil's ego get your hackles up too much. A lot of people have noticed that he has a developed a big mouth and a big ego over the course of his brewcast 'career', and this is a pretty typical response for him. Not to be to taken too seriously.

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I read the posts and listened to the show. It's the first time I've listened to it in a LONG time for these same reasons mentioned above.

I certainly don't know Kai personally, but I've followed his work both on here, his website, and on most of the BBR shows he's done. Regardless of right, wrong, or somewhere in between, I see Kai as a person with a genuine and deep interest in the brewing process. He concedes when he may have overlooked something and he sticks to his guns when his research shows otherwise. Like a true scientist, he seeks truth. And that's alright in my book.

This isn't hero worship. I don't do that. It's just the way I see it.

This whole situation is disappointing. I expect a certain level of asshatness on some of the shows on the BN, it's their shtick. BrewStrong was to be about science more than attitude.

Let's face it, they have a bit of a bully pulpit with the "radio" show format and can push their views. I'm just disappointed that it seems to have actually happened.

I listened to the show a few days ago. When I heard that particular portion of the show I immediately thought of your work and conclusions Kai. However, I didn't realize they were actually singling you out until now. I have read a good deal of your info Kai and I do have to say that you are very thorough and look at things with a good scientific eye. Thanks for your contributions on here as well as on BasicBrewing.com.

Because I am a member here at HBT and because I have followed some of Kai's posts, I am now a better homebrewer. I get lost with some of Kai's deeper explanations behind the science of homebrewing - not sure I will ever understand all of that stuff. Thanks for your help on this forum Kai.

I listened to it earlier today, and I've read a lot of your work, Kai.

My take is that there are two different target audiences. They're talking to the people that want a quick answer, and you're giving the long drawn out answer to anybody that wants to take the time to read it. What you call research (or 'science' as they called it) they (also) referred to as nit-picking.

They have books to sell, you have a free-access website. They need to keep people listening to their quick answer so they can keep selling their books, with new answers in each edition. You just do it because you enjoy getting down to the little details.

FWIW, as the show went on it seemed like they were saying a lot of the same things I've read on your website, only they had some 80's guitar riffs and inuendos mixed in instead of charts and graphs. Some people can't understand the charts and graphs, others don't care to spend the time. You both provide a knowledge base, just to different audiences.

IMO, it appears as though JZ somehow feels threatened by your brewing knowledge and how scientific and thorough your approach is. Unfortunate about the comments.

What is so ironic is that, IF wort quality is paramount then it would seem at a minimum you would want to know whether you were losing efficiency during mashing. It seems that, for a given lauter/sparge process, the less gravity you have the less 'good stuff' (i.e. sugars) in your wort to counter any 'bad stuff' (tannins, etc.). So even if you don't have a ton of 'bad stuff' in your wort...increasing the ratio of good stuff:bad stuff will increase wort quality. Which was the whole point to begin with. Knowledge is power.

Anyway, keep up the good work Kai.

I’m done with this and will let it die.

Jamil sent me a short e-mail in which he apologized (sort of) for me getting lumped in with all the others from the “interwebz” out there.

What I wanted to say has been said, now I can go back to more interesting stuff. I’ll refrain from listening to the BS show unless they have some interesting expert guests (the next one with Charlie and A.J. looks interesting). If you year something on the BN shows that in response to this drama, let me know. I’m curious, that’s all.

Kai

Kaiser said:

If you year something on the BN shows that in response to this drama, let me know. I’m curious, that’s all. Kai

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Not gonna happen from me. I can't stand that show.

SpanishCastleAle said:

IMO, it appears as though JZ somehow feels threatened by your brewing knowledge and how scientific and thorough your approach is. Unfortunate about the comments.

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To be fair, Kaiser has made negative comments about Jamil here, even if you want to think that this was an unwarranted escalation by Jamil, both have been active participants in what amounts to a fairly weak feud.

Are they threatened by each other? I think it is more likely that they annoy each other.

GilaMinumBeer said:

Not gonna happen from me. I can't stand that show.

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Exactly, I have no interest in supporting a show that would behave like that. On this forum you have been nothing but helpful and informative, I can't see you being any other way in all phases of your life.

remilard said:

To be fair, Kaiser has made negative comments about Jamil here, even if you want to think that this was an unwarranted escalation by Jamil, both have been active participants in what amounts to a fairly weak feud.

Are they threatened by each other? I think it is more likely that they annoy each other.

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Have evidence ready before you sling crap around.

Kai wants it to die. I think we should respect that sentiment in the interests of ourselves!

Well, I don't really have anything to add here. I have listened to JZ and Palmer on the shows and have always gotten good info from them. Kai also has some good info. I am nowhere near to their levels in knowledge or ability. Maybe some day.

I have not done it, because I get all kinds of great brewing info right from this site, but a friend of mine has emailed JZ a few times before and has always received a prompt and courteous reply. I personally don't believe that he is an asshat as he has been made out to be in a few posts. He has too much experience and I've heard too many people giving examples of his willingness to help other homebrewers to believe it.

I would like to see even more technical info on the Brew Strong program though, in case you are reading JZ. That is the best part of the brewing podcasts IMO. Keep it up.

But the best source of info is usually right here. The sheer number of members pitching in with their experiences and experiments is awesome. You can't find that kind of input over there.

Kaiser said:

Jamil sent me a short e-mail in which he apologized (sort of) for me getting lumped in with all the others from the “interwebz” out there.

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Well it's good to know that he looks at the rest of us brewers on the internet as "less than" those who have blogs and podcasts. Too bad about that ego, it makes it harder to listen to the shows hes on.

I listened to the Sunday Session last night and no one brought it up...but Jamil and John weren't on either. I figure he will just let it die, there is really no reason to drag this out.

Hey Jamil bashers.Are you guys retarded?Did you even listen to the show in question?I respect Kai a lot,and can understand why he was upset.His comment was brought up in the show,but in all fairness.The whole point was that eff. is not that big of a deal in homebrewing(maybe it is to some people).The point was there are so many other major things to get consistent before eff. or $2 more in grain.Again no offense to you Kai.I know you have done a lot of research on the matter which is great.Jamil probably should have checked out your work first.I just think a lot of people are quick to judge and take sides.You can't bash either one of these guys.If you have ever visited Kai's site then you know he has obviously done his homework.And Jamil's site is a good resource too.That and he is the most decorated home brewer in the world.Sorry for the rant ,but some of you guys just act ridiculous sometimes and it had to be said.This is a hobby people.Chill the F@$K out!

Closed at the OP's request.

Epilogue:

No. We are not all retarded.

Thank you for confirming that some people can't handle a mature discussion. We should all RDWHAHB, so the thread can remain open.


Ooops.