Question about Wyeast Roselare

I'm sure it's been asked, but I can't seem to find the answer anywhere. First off, I'm making my first venture into sour beer making in just a couple weeks. I've already decided a few things... first, I am not going to pre-ferment, as I've tasted numerous 100% Roselare beers that were better than the pre-fermented versions. I'm also planning to simply pitch the Roselare smack pack without making a starter- hey, when the Wyeast dude says it's best, I believe him. My questions:

When using Roselare in something like an Oud Bruin or Flanders Red, is it best to leave the beer in contact with the yeast/bug cake for the duration of the ferment and aging, or should I rack to secondary at some point? I'm assuming the former. Also, I've read the first use of Roselare can take 12 months or so to develop a good sour character, but subsequent batches pitched on the cake tend to sour up within 1-3 months. Anyone willing to speak to this?

Cheers!

Bump

Subscribed. Sorry I have no answer for you. Definitely use this thread to document your own roselare fermentation.

It's a good question. That technique would sure save me time. I'm skeptical though. I hope somebody confirms this.

Subscribed.

jcam91 said:

Subscribed. Sorry I have no answer for you. Definitely use this thread to document your own roselare fermentation.

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Indeed.

Anyone?

With as trendy as sours have become, I'm shocked no one has an answer. My plan is to pitch the smack pack alone and let it sit for 11 months, then rack it onto some fresh picked and frozen Tulare cherries for another month.

Edit: I'll be doing multiple 2.5 gal batches over the next few months... to build up a nice sour pipeline.

Two more questions: what type of bottles, and what's the best bottling process?

I just wrote wyeast with this question and will post back what they tell me.

Brulosopher said:

Two more questions: what type of bottles, and what's the best bottling process?

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I'm thinking Belgian bottles. I like how they do it

theathleticsfan said:

I just wrote wyeast with this question and will post back what they tell me.

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Badass, I don't know why I didn't think to do that

The response from wyeast was really fast:

"This is a pretty common question. I typically give an answer based on my personal experience with this type of brew. I have done a few brews with the blend and have left all of the yeast in the primary for 1 year and have had excellent result doing so. That being said, I think it would not be too detrimental to rack the beer at some point before that, but I would go for 90 days prior to racking."

A primary fermentation with the blend should give you a more sour profile, but Roeselare is known for taking quite a long time to develop that character. You are correct as not to make a starter. As for leaving in primary for the duration, the Brett will feed on the dead cells. I've seen and heard of both and it really seems like a personal preference. Just give this beer time and lots of it. It will pay off in the end. Cheers and good luck.

theathleticsfan said:

The response from wyeast was really fast:

"This is a pretty common question. I typically give an answer based on my personal experience with this type of brew. I have done a few brews with the blend and have left all of the yeast in the primary for 1 year and have had excellent result doing so. That being said, I think it would not be too detrimental to rack the beer at some point before that, but I would go for 90 days prior to racking."

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Rad. I'm not changing my plans then. Thanks for contacting them!

tjBrewer said:

A primary fermentation with the blend should give you a more sour profile, but Roeselare is known for taking quite a long time to develop that character. You are correct as not to make a starter. As for leaving in primary for the duration, the Brett will feed on the dead cells. I've seen and heard of both and it really seems like a personal preference. Just give this beer time and lots of it. It will pay off in the end. Cheers and good luck.

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Right on. So if I plan on doing multiple 2.5 gal batches, should I split the smack packs between 2? That only seems accurate...

You may be better off with a pack for each. Would be a bit more cost but at least you know you are getting the right ratio of bugs to yeast.

tjBrewer said:

You may be better off with a pack for each. Would be a bit more cost but at least you know you are getting the right ratio of bugs to yeast.

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That's a good thought, cost isn't that big of an issue. Cheers!

Subscribed as well. I am a noob to sours and have one going with Belgian yeast primary and Roselaere secondary with cherries. Good questions and thanks for contacting Wyeast. Good info.

Thanks for posting the feedback from Wyeast. I asked the same question on another site a while back and didn't receive one response. I have a Flanders Red going with a single pack of Roesalare. Was shocked how quickly initiated and vigorous the ferment was without a starter. I decided to rack to a 5g secondary from the 6.5g, stirring up the trub and taking it with. Essentially I racked just to reduce headspace, being I'm going the full 18 months .
Subscribed.

No problem - the Wyeast guy said to not hesitate to email him again if I have further questions, so if any of you have anything else you are wondering, let me know.

How are you all planning on (or currently handling) temperature control? If this will be sitting for a year, my initial thought is to just put it in a closet after it has fermented out, however the temperature fluctuation will range from the mid 50s to the mid 80s over the course of a year.

I'm doing the same thing, just putting the carboy in a fairly temp stable closet in the guest bedroom. There's not much else I can do given the duration it will sit. I may have to figure something out this summer if it gets too warm.
I kept the initial fermentation low (67 degrees), because I was worried about what I might lose through the blowoff tube. (brett, lacto ect.)

theathleticsfan said:

No problem - the Wyeast guy said to not hesitate to email him again if I have further questions, so if any of you have anything else you are wondering, let me know.

How are you all planning on (or currently handling) temperature control? If this will be sitting for a year, my initial thought is to just put it in a closet after it has fermented out, however the temperature fluctuation will range from the mid 50s to the mid 80s over the course of a year.

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My plan is to store it in an un-used bathroom, in the shower . Temp range over a year is probably 65-74F, so not a huge deal IMO.

Brulosopher said:

My plan is to store it in an un-used bathroom, in the shower . Temp range over a year is probably 65-74F, so not a huge deal IMO.

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Do you think you can rack to secondary after a couple months and repitch on the cake? Or are you gonna use a fresh pack every time?

jcam91 said:

Do you think you can rack to secondary after a couple months and repitch on the cake? Or are you gonna use a fresh pack every time?

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Given the 18 month time commitment on this yeast, I really think the $6 for a new pouch is worth every penny. Just sayin....

So, I've brewed two beers using this yeast - off the same cake.

The first one was a fairly standard Flanders Red base (per Mad Fermentationist).

I pitched the smackpack, no starter. This was in May, 2011. It sat on that for six months, then in November 2011 I added 3 pounds of cherry puree and some dregs from a handful of sours my buddies and I were drinking at the time. Left it on that for another 4 months, then racked it in March 2012.

So, 10 months on the primary yeast cake, total. It was intensely sour and fruity and robust. A beer I was very happy with, but it's definitely not a intro sour beer - it's profoundly sour.

I was so happy with it, I threw another batch directly on top of that cake. It's still sitting there, a year later. It has one heck of a crazy pellicle on it right now, too. I'll try to get a picture of it.

Anyway, great yeast, the smack pack is all you need. Just be patient with it. Stick it somewhere and forget about it for six months. Then taste it and decide what you want to do.

Totes said:

Given the 18 month time commitment on this yeast, I really think the $6 for a new pouch is worth every penny. Just sayin....

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Well... I'll start tasting after 7-9 months. Either way, everyone I know who makes sours says that pitching onto a cake, even (especially!) after 12-18 months, produces beers with much more sour character and complexity, in less time. I plan to keep using the same cakes until they suck.

Order literally just placed for 2 packs Roselaere and 1 vial WLP655 Belgian Sour. I'm stoked... for next year.

it'll taste different if repitched. roeselare is different than a standard yeast, in that it is 3 different types of yeast blended. during the fermentation, the proportion of the yeasts change. some increase, some decrease. same reason not to do a starter with it; just pitch it and let it go. when done, dump and replace.

lumpher said:

it'll taste different if repitched. roeselare is different than a standard yeast, in that it is 3 different types of yeast blended. during the fermentation, the proportion of the yeasts change. some increase, some decrease. same reason not to do a starter with it; just pitch it and let it go. when done, dump and replace.

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It's actually yeast AND bugs. I'm looking forward to the differences

Just tasted an 8 month old Oud Bruin that's been on a single smack pack of Roselare in the primary, and it was tart, funky, beautiful. No reason to secondary, IMO. Good luck!

I'm also going to re pitch onto the same cake. Always learning!

Wadian said:

Just tasted an 8 month old Oud Bruin that's been on a single smack pack of Roselare in the primary, and it was tart, funky, beautiful. No reason to secondary, IMO. Good luck!

I'm also going to re pitch onto the same cake. Always learning!

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This excites me! I'm working on my Oud Bruin and Flanders Red recipes as I type this... will post for critique shortly!

Here are the recipes for the Oud Bruin and Flanders Red I hope to get to this coming weekend. Both will be 2.5 gallon batches that I'll ferment in 3 gallon plastic buckets, at least for the first 6 months, at which point they might be tasted... my plan is to keep both on the yeast cake for at least 12 months, bottle, then put more wort on those cakes. Any recommendations for changes are very much appreciated!

Oud Bruin
Est OG: 1.063
IBU: 23
SRM: 20
Est ABV: 6.5%

GRAIN
3.75 lbs Pils Malt
1.00 lbs Munich Malt - Light
8.00 oz White Wheat Malt
4.00 oz C60
4.00 oz Honey Malt
4.00 oz Special B
2.00 oz Carafa II (412L)

HOPS
10 g Crystal + 9 g Fuggle + 4 g Tettnang @ 60 minutes
(I'm admittedly using a bunch of leftover hops for bittering this beer...)

YEAST/BUGS
Wyeast Roeselare Belgian Blend (no starter)

Flanders Red Ale
Est OG: 1.056
IBU: 17
SRM: 13
Est ABV: 6.0%

GRAIN
2.00 lbs Vienna Malt
1.75 lbs Pils Malt
1.00 lbs Munich Malt
4.00 oz White Wheat Malt
3.00 oz C60
3.00 oz Honey Malt
3.00 oz Special B

HOPS
9 g EKG @ 60 min

YEAST/BUGS
Wyeast Roeselare Belgian Blend (no starter)

**********************************************
So that's where I'm at. I've also got some WLP655 on the way that I plan to use in a sour blonde within the next few weeks as well. I still have to work on that recipe.

Cheers!

Brulosopher said:

Well... I'll start tasting after 7-9 months. Either way, everyone I know who makes sours says that pitching onto a cake, even (especially!) after 12-18 months, produces beers with much more sour character and complexity, in less time. I plan to keep using the same cakes until they suck.

Order literally just placed for 2 packs Roselaere and 1 vial WLP655 Belgian Sour. I'm stoked... for next year.

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Your theory and other posters has me thinking. Especially the "in less time" part. If i used the same recipe on the my cake in 6 months, a younger, unique beer could be perfect for blending with the old. Duchess de bourgogne blending style.

Someone said "looking forward to the differences"...another good thought.

I'm still letting the sour I have going ride on trub for 18, but soon I'm going to brew another, and now plan on experimenting with that cake.

Good stuff.

Well it looks like my plans to brew the sours this weekend has changed... MoreBeer hasn't even shipped my order yet. Ehh, I'll throw something else together and get to the sours in a couple weeks.

Your Oud Bruin recipe looks good, with interesting specialty malts. The base malts are almost identical to mine. Are your hops aged? I stumbled across a giant bag of 2 yr old hops that I used for this brew, and the resultant lack of bitter bite allows all the funk to shine, IMO. That is the only "critique" I'd make. I don't know enough about Flanders Red to comment.

One additional note on my Ous Bruin: twice my brewing buddies and I got stoked on a sour we were enjoying and dumped the dregs into the carboy (5g). One was Trois Dames Oud Bruin and once was a BFM Douze. I live in Switzerland where both are brewed. I wonder if they added much, but there was a strong acidity to the beer that surprised me a bit from the Roeselare. It could have come from those dregs.

This thread is of interest to me. I have my first sour going that is a shot in the dark based upon a Belgian Dark Strong Ale wort, basically an attempt at a Westvleteren clone, not that it turned out the way I wanted it, nice flavor but way too sweet for my taste. Think pilsner, special B, munich, aromatic, biscuit, and chocolate malt along with some belgian candy syrup. That said, I diluted that wort by half, pitched WLP530 and the dregs of a couple of Oud Krieks that had Saccharomyces, Brettanomyces, Pedio and Lactobacillus in them. I let the go a couple months and added a 6 lbs of lightly crushed grapes. Now it is at 7 months, looking hideous and tasting great. It definitely went through a rough period flavor wise, lots of what I think were fusel alcohols.

See my thread here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/first-sour-bit-belgian-dark-strong-ale-345559/

I have been digging around trying to figure out when people think their sours are done. I also am interested, based upon this thread, what one does with all the semi-hideous looking spent fruit when trying to save the yeast cake? I'm thinking it might be hard to separate out. Mine is just two gallons and has several inches of grapes floating on the surface covered in a combination of pellicle and what I would think is mold. Funky!
I'll be watching the thread but any input is welcome.

Wadian said:

Your Oud Bruin recipe looks good, with interesting specialty malts. The base malts are almost identical to mine. Are your hops aged? I stumbled across a giant bag of 2 yr old hops that I used for this brew, and the resultant lack of bitter bite allows all the funk to shine, IMO. That is the only "critique" I'd make. I don't know enough about Flanders Red to comment.

One additional note on my Ous Bruin: twice my brewing buddies and I got stoked on a sour we were enjoying and dumped the dregs into the carboy (5g). One was Trois Dames Oud Bruin and once was a BFM Douze. I live in Switzerland where both are brewed. I wonder if they added much, but there was a strong acidity to the beer that surprised me a bit from the Roeselare. It could have come from those dregs.

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I chose the specialty malts simply because I like to add my own flare to more traditional recipes I've already tasted. I do actually have some old hops that, unfortunately, failed to fully seal in the FoodSaver last time I used them... only thing is they are Chinook, which I'm not all the keen on for bittering Belgians. Thoughts? I won't be pitching any dregs, as I am very interested in how just the Roeselare and WLP655 work alone.

Brewitt said:

I have been digging around trying to figure out when people think their sours are done. I also am interested, based upon this thread, what one does with all the semi-hideous looking spent fruit when trying to save the yeast cake? I'm thinking it might be hard to separate out. Mine is just two gallons and has several inches of grapes floating on the surface covered in a combination of pellicle and what I would think is mold. Funky!
I'll be watching the thread but any input is welcome.

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I have a friend who has used Roeselare multiple times. His comment to me, while sipping a 12 month old Flanders Red of his last weekend, was that the first beer made with that blend takes 9-12 months to develop good sour character; however, subsequent beers racked onto that yeast cake tend to sour up nicely within 2-6 months depending on OG. Another buddy told me that for beers he plans to put on fruit, he'll place the fruit in a secondary carboy once the beer is basically finished, then rack the beer off the "clean" yeast/bug cake onto the fruit. At this point, the cake is then re-used. I'm not sure how others do it, but this is how I plan to start. Basically, no fruit is added until the beer is essentially ready to bottle, then the beer sits on the fruit for 2-4 weeks is all.

Cheers!

I believe mine had developed sourness early due to the amount of pedio and lacto in the pitch. However, the brett character has only been developing in the last couple months. I wish I had made 5 gallons rather than two but I will try to start a couple more soon. I need some more carboys. The fruit definitely added something but I'm not sure how much it is contributing now.

Well, well... MB shipped my **** yesterday and it'll be here today. Since I've got these going for two 5.5 gal batches tomorrow...

...my plan for this weekend, prior to leaving on a trip to NY, may include throwing a couple 2.5 gal batches together. Hmmmmmm.....

Ahhhhhh, yes

Sampled my sour once again. This time I measured the SG. 1.006. I don't know whether that is a moving number since last time I measured it was before the grape addition. It was 1.002 but I have no idea how many points the grapes initially added. But at least now I have a baseline.

I also carbonated my gravity sample using a soda stream and took a taste. The sourness is great! The carbonation seems to bring out the Brett character a little more strongly. Overall, I think this is going to be a winner. However, I will lose a lot to the mixture of heavy pellicle and floating grapes. I'm guessing I will get a gallon out of this in the end. The good thing is it is powerful enough to blend or to drink in four ounce glasses. Probably going to shoot for about 3 volumes of carbonation but that won't happen for a number of months.