Problem with Hefeweizen offtaste

My friend has brewed a Bavarian Hefeweizen and it turned out with an off taste. He maybe doesn't notice it because he is not a seasoned Weissbier drinker like myself (I lived in Munich for 3 years) but there's definately something off there. I can only describe it as a woody flavour. He used Wheat malt extract with more wheat as a specialty grain, Hallertau hops for bittering and the Weihenstephan Yeast from Wyeast.

He fermented at way too high a temperature in my opinion (25 degrees Celcius) which was outside the suggested temps for his yeast by 1 degree. I own and have read Daniels' book Designing Great Beers and it states that the pitching and fermenting temps when added together should not exceed 30 degrees. Though this would be my first conclusion I don't know of "woody" flavours resulting from high fermentation temps. It also suggests a 2:1 Wheat to Barley ratio and I believe he used all Wheat.


I'm setting out to brew my first and I want to avoid this same pitfall and seeing as we share the same ingredients provider I would like to know if it is recipe or condition based. My thoughts are leaning towards condition but seeing as how he used all Wheat malt and didn't include Pale Malt that could have contributed.

Wadda y'all think?

Are you sure it was 25 Celcius? That's 77 degrees and Weihenstephan yeast likes to be fermented at 68 degrees which is 20 degrees Celcius. If you want more bannana flavor, you bump it up a couple degrees, but not so much.

The second is the recipe. If he used all wheat, then that's wrong as well. Bavarian Hefeweizens are at least 50% wheat malt, but I don't know of one more than 65% Wheat. Mine is like 63.5% Wheat to 36.5% Pils, but lots of folks do 50/50.

My AG recipe is as follows.

7# Wheat
4# Pils
8 oz. rice hulls (to prevent a stuck mash)

Mash at 153 for 90 minutes

0.75 Hallertau at 45 min.
0.25 Hallertau at 15 min.

Weihenstephan 3068 with a starter.

Ferment at 68 to 70 degrees for 10 days then keg.

It comes in at 5.6% abv

Yes, I'm sure it was 25 degrees (Weihenstephan should ferment somewhere between 18-24° C )which is why I mentioned it along with the fact that he used all wheat rather than a mix with Barley. I'm aware of the flavours of esters, how and when they are achieved and this is why I'd like to know where this mystery woody note came from. I can't seem to determine whether it was fermentation outside the normal range or improper ingredients that resulted in something off.

I'd bet it is the recipe. All wheat. Is it all grain or extract?

It was extract with a mini-mash of wheat.

Do you think that wheat would contribute to that woody taste?

On thing I noticed was the woody taste was largely due to the residual sediment and yeast left on the bottom of the bottle. I was so used to swirling the last one inch to mix up the yeast and pouring it into my beer in Germany that I did the same with his. I noticed one day when I didn't do that (I had two bottles of his brew) that the off-taste was considerabley weaker.

The woody taste is probably from the hops. I get a slightly woody taste on my pils...but it's not a flaw IMHO, it's a nice characteristic. And I'm fairly sure it came from the dryhopping.

Evan! said:

The woody taste is probably from the hops. I get a slightly woody taste on my pils...but it's not a flaw IMHO, it's a nice characteristic. And I'm fairly sure it came from the dryhopping.

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I was thinking about the hops also. There are several that I really don't like the flavor of.

Any way, what's the bottom line here? Is it still drinkable? Slightly? If so, then I recommend blending it with another brew in a pitcher before serving.

I know I say that a lot, but it really works.

It could also be infected.

It's probably not because he used wheat malt extract; What you buy as "wheat malt" in extract form is almost always a mixture of wheat & barley malt, usually something around a 50/50 split. So you should be able to make an extract weizen using only "wheat malt extract" as your fermentable sugar source and be just fine, because it's not actually 100% wheat.

I really don't believe it's the hops since there very little in there and only as a bittering hop rather than a flavour or aroma hop. I find it a stretch that such a mild hop as Hallertau would present such a taste. Furthermore, this is unlike any taste I have ever experienced in beer before. It was almost as if there were oak chips used in the primary or something.

As for the heresy ("tisk tisk" jeder Bayerischer schuttelt den Kopf) of mixing Weissbier with another type of beer, this strays from my original post and wasn't the reason for my query. What I would like to do is determine the origins of this off-taste so that I can avoid it when I make my own batch. I have pointed out things which I view as incorrect or less than perfect in my friends attempt but I was hoping someone would be able to pinpoint the reason from their own experience with off tastes. I too can postulate that it could be the hops, recipe or fermentation temp. but the best guess yet has been from Brewpastor as infection could cause any number of off tastes.

I read not too long ago a list of off tastes and their reasons and I can't for the life of me find it. If anyone has seen such a list please post a link.

So to refine my question, has anyone ever brewed a wheat based (not necessarily exlusively wheat) beer, a beer bittered with Hallertau hops, a beer fermented with Weihenstephan yeast or any combination thereof which has yielded a noticeable wood-like off taste which would not be normally found in a wheat beer?

Nostrildamus said:

...As for the heresy ("tisk tisk" jeder Bayerischer schuttelt den Kopf) of mixing Weissbier with another type of beer...

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I didn't say I would do it, only recommended he do it to save his beer.

Mix a Weizen with lemon-lime soda (just like a Radler/Shandy) and it's called a "Ruß'n.

I've probably brewed 30+ HWs and never made a bad tasting one yet.

Evan said:

I get a slightly woody

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A slightly?

LOL

most wheat extracts are actually a blend of wheat and barley, so all wheat is not the problem, although the steeped wheat could add more of the wheat charachteristics (esters, crazy head retention, explosive fermentation). I would guess that the unusual tastes would be from the high fermentation temperature and the added amount of wheat.

"A slightly woody".... would a semi be better? Ha ha.

Well, though we haven't really reached a solid conclusion on this one, and it would be near impossible without all of you tasting it, I've got to think this odd oaky tasting Weissbier must have been fermented at too high a temperature. The ranges provided on the yeast packages are there for a reason and although high fermentation temps don't usually give woodies, er... woody off-tastes I'm sure it is possible that the taste may be a derivative of esters and fusel alcohol.

25 Degrees is pretty damn warm.

Warm fermentation = ester (fruity)

Did the steeping maybe go on for too long, or with grain too crushed, you could be tasting tannins from husks?

That seems like it makes some sense considering the sediment was where the offending taste seemed strongest. Because this batch was cheifly an extract one with a steeping bag I would say that it is possible the wheat malt which my friend used was ground too fine and made it through to the bottles. Once again though, I don't think we can expect to come to a definite conclusion on this one.

BTW: I found the source for the list of common off flavors I had referenced earlier in this post. It came from John Palmer's How To Brew and is available here:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

I found this same issue in the hefeweizen I just made. I've had a lot of hefe's in the past from a german family. There is a strange off flavor that I'm not used too that I suppose could be described as 'woody'. This flavor does seem to be centralized with the sediment in the beer. I had a similar all extract recipe and am looking to try to make another hefeweizen soon.
I might also have been fermenting at too high a temperature at points. The brew also has been over foaming from the bottles whenever I open them. This led me to believe that the beer had been infected. But I'm still trying to find out what's going on. if anyone has an explanation I'd be glad to hear it.

After some further research, I think that a lot of the flavors may be the yeast. I've noticed that the beer also appears slightly green. This may be my issue, but yours might be different. here's what I found:
Yeasty
The cause of this flavor is pretty easy to understand. If the yeast is unhealthy and begins autolyzing it will release compounds that can only be described as yeasty. Also if the beer is green, too young, and the yeast has not had time to settle out, it will have a yeasty taste. Watch your pouring method too, keep the yeast layer on the bottom of the bottle