Kettle carmelization

Hi, two questions in regards to kettle caramelization:

1. For some reason I had been under the impression that longer mashes (90 mins as opposed to 60 min) were how to achieve kettle carmelization, but reading more - and just thinking it over - I realize I may have been mistaken and it is the boil that should be extended to 90 mins, not the mash. Which is correct, or can both be utilized to this end?
2. How much caramelization is achieved by the addition 90 min (whether it be mash or boil)? Is it enough to forgo using crystal malts in typically malt-heavy beers (such as bocks, old ales, and barleywines)?

caramelization is done by removing some of the first runnings and boiling it in a separate pot to minimize the liquid thereby cuasing caramelization and adding that back to your boil at 60 minutes or whenever you feel you need to.

adixon3 said:

caramelization is done by removing some of the first runnings and boiling it in a separate pot to minimize the liquid thereby cuasing caramelization and adding that back to your boil at 60 minutes or whenever you feel you need to.

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Right. You may get a bit more maillard reactions in a 90 minute boil, so the beer may taste a bit more malt forward, but it won't caramelize the wort.

Taking some of the sweeter first runnings, as mentioned above, and boiling them down to thicken them will have some caramelizing effects. That's pretty common in "bigger" Scottish ales.

Would boiling down a gallon of wort remove the need for crystal malts in the styles I mentioned? Also, would doing this caramelization remove the need for the 90 minute boil in regards to maillard reactions?

EDIT: and just to be sure, am I correct in thinking the 90 min mash is not needed at all?

Caramelization occurs far beyond boiling temps (230 F ++) and is usually associated with pure sugar melting in a pot to make candy. Evaporation and total concentration of sugars matters with caramelization. What you're curious about is the development of Maillard Reactions, which encompasses browning via reducing sugars and concentration of proteins/amino acids. Both Caramelization and Maillard Reactions involve heat, which lends some confusion between the two. Despite this, Maillard Reactions can occur at room temperature... Caramelization cannot.

"Many different factors play a role in the Maillard formation and thus in the final colour and aroma; pH (acidity), types of amino acids and sugars, temperature, time, presence of oxygen, water, water activity (aw) and other food components all are important."

I suggest you read this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/kettle-caramelization-maillard-reaction-fermentability-123029/

Here's more on the topic:

http://brewery.org/library/Maillard_CS0497.html

http://www.food-info.net/uk/colour/caramel.htm

http://www.food-info.net/uk/colour/maillard.htm

I'll read through those, thanks.