Water is starting to confuse/frustrate me.

Hi all. I have been brewing for about 1 1/2 years, AG since the 10th batch or so. I had focused on fermentation temp control/sanitation at the start and was very happy with my results. When I went AG I started to get frustrated. I brew all styles and have been relatively happy with the lighter styles but I love porters and stouts and it seems any darker beer is coming out thin and slightly harsh. I've been reading a lot of posts, purchased/read the Water book and tried messing around with the water profile tools in Beersmith and I don't feel I'm making any progress.

Here is my Ward report:

pH 8.5
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 160
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.27
Cations / Anions, me/L 2.3 / 2.2
ppm
Sodium, Na 11
Potassium, K 4
Calcium, Ca 25
Magnesium, Mg 6
Total Hardness, CaCO3 88
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.4 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 7
Chloride, Cl 40
Carbonate, CO3 3
Bicarbonate, HCO3 29
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 29


In my last batch (Black Butte Poter Clone) I used the suggestions in the water chemistry primer thread and just started with distilled water instead of my carbon filtered water. Its still in the fermentor so I haven't been able to try it yet. Should I just keep using distilled/RO or can I adjust my home water to get good results. Any help would be great.

gwaugh said:

Hi all. I have been brewing for about 1 1/2 years, AG since the 10th batch or so. I had focused on fermentation temp control/sanitation at the start and was very happy with my results. When I went AG I started to get frustrated. I brew all styles and have been relatively happy with the lighter styles but I love porters and stouts and it seems any darker beer is coming out thin and slightly harsh. I've been reading a lot of posts, purchased/read the Water book and tried messing around with the water profile tools in Beersmith and I don't feel I'm making any progress.

Here is my Ward report:

pH 8.5
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 160
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.27
Cations / Anions, me/L 2.3 / 2.2
ppm
Sodium, Na 11
Potassium, K 4
Calcium, Ca 25
Magnesium, Mg 6
Total Hardness, CaCO3 88
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.4 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 7
Chloride, Cl 40
Carbonate, CO3 3
Bicarbonate, HCO3 29
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 29


In my last batch (Black Butte Poter Clone) I used the suggestions in the water chemistry primer thread and just started with distilled water instead of my carbon filtered water. Its still in the fermentor so I haven't been able to try it yet. Should I just keep using distilled/RO or can I adjust my home water to get good results. Any help would be great.

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Your water looks pretty darn good, especially for lighter colored beers.

I would try a water spreadsheet, and see what's going on with your mash pH. It's possible that with your water (and distilled) that your mash pH is a bit low. It's not common for that to happen in any but the darkest beers, but that could explain why your dark beers aren't great.

Bru'nwater is a great tool, although it has a learning curve if you're new to water. Brewer's Friend is a bit easier to use, and can help you figure out your probable mash pH and that may be very helpful.

Don't assume the problem is the water. With the water you have you shouldn't have to do anything and should get a pretty good stout. Look at grain bill, yeast, hops and saccharification temperature. Back off on the hops and don't use a high alpha variety. Go easy on the roast grains. Keep them under 10%.

Get Michael Lewis's monograph on stout and try the Irish stout recipe there. That recipe makes a good stout with water like yours. If it doesn't then there is a problem with technique somewhere.

The reason I question the water is that for one, my extract brews were coming out great, also I kept finding suggested water profiles for darker beers with much higher alkalinity (150-275), and lastly I've been very happy with my pale ales and IPAs. I'm willing to try the stout recipe suggested, but at this point I have my doubts. I used a dry Irish stout AG kit from Morebeer and I had the same results. The aroma was great and in the front the flavors were great but the body/mouth feel were very thin and rather harsh on the back end.

You do have great water, but it is not suited to most dark beer brewing. As AJ mentions, it should be good for making a dry stout as long as you mash the pale malt and barley without most of the roast barley so that the mash pH stays in the proper range around 5.4. Then add the remainder of the roast barley at the end of the mash to add the color, flavor, and push the wort pH down low where it is supposed to be for that style. Mashing all the grains together when brewing with your water will produce a too low mash pH and the resulting body could be thinner than desired.

For other dark styles, you really HAVE to add alkalinity to that water to produce the results you are looking for. The trick of reserving the roasted grains to the end of the mash only serves to protect the mash pH and the resulting kettle wort pH is going to be too low for the other stout and porter styles. You have to add the alkalinity to neutralize the acids from the roasted grains. Targeting a somewhat higher mash and kettle pH of between 5.4 and 5.6 does smooth the roast flavor and avoid the harshness you dislike.

Good luck. You have otherwise great water and you just need to conquer the need for alkalinity in your mashing water for those dark beers.

gwaugh said:

The reason I question the water is that for one, my extract brews were coming out great, also I kept finding suggested water profiles for darker beers with much higher alkalinity (150-275)

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You will see lots of advice (including right here in No. 5) suggesting that you need lots of alkalinity in stouts. Sometimes you do but often these claims are exaggerated. To lend some insight look at these numbers which represent expected pH's for mashes with your water and basemalt/crystalmalt/blackmalt percentages and a 1.25 qt/lb liquor to grist ratio. The crystal model is for 60L and the black malt 600L. The crystal contributes as many protons (acid) per pound as the black malt in cases like these and that is something to keep in mind. The base malt has a DI pH of 5.62.

80/10/10 5.38
70/10/20 5.29
60/10/30 5.18

The way to interpret these numbers is that if you are running 80% or more base malt you are OK - need no alkali. If you get up to 30% black plus colored malt you might want to thing about adding alkali and if you go over 40% you definitely should.

Were you to use a base malt with a DI pH of 0.1 higher (5.2) the mash pH's would increase by 0.07. Were you to replace the dark crystal in my model with something lighter in color (20 - 40L) then pH would also increase.

Dark beers are the trickiest to predict mash pH for because the variabilities of the malts and because the dark malts have proton surfeits that match or exceed the proton deficits (alkalinity) of the water plus base malts. According to the lore that is why dark beers are dark. When brewing dark beers a pH meter is almost a necessity unless you keep specialty malt percentage below 20%. That's easy to do for an Irish stout but if you want something bigger than that it might not be.

gwaugh said:

I'm willing to try the stout recipe suggested, but at this point I have my doubts. I used a dry Irish stout AG kit from Morebeer and I had the same results. The aroma was great and in the front the flavors were great but the body/mouth feel were very thin and rather harsh on the back end.

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Irish Stout is not a big beer. Many people don't understand that. It is low in OG and alcohol content relative to most other beers. It is intended to be light bodied. The harshness is not part of the profile. Harshness can come from excessive hops, especially high alpha varieties and especially in the presence of a large sulfate concentration but it can also come from excessive use of bitter, roast malt or barley. This stuff is quite flavorfull and you don't need that much to get the color and the roasted flavors you want. I don't do anything but Irish but get plenty of those flavors from 10% or less roast barley. Were I to do a grander stout I wouldn't increase the roast barley but rather use more base malt for more extract/alcohol.

New Subject: How old is your Ward Labs report? The reason I ask is that they were calculating bicarbonate and carbonate incorrectly (yours are actually, respectively, 32.6 and 0.5). I showed them how to fix this and am looking for a report newer than about 3 weeks ago to see if they did.

Ok, thanks for all of the advice and input. I'm starting to get a better understanding but my next purchase is going to be a pH meter so I can actually see and track what is going on in my mash. Any suggestions for a decent one that doesn't break the bank? I think I will try the technique of holding the darker grains until the end of the mash next. I have read about it in several places including Gordon Strong's book.

As for my Ward report it is dated 4-17-2014 so its a couple months old. If my actual bicarbonate is 32.6 am I correct in assuming my total alkalinity as CaCO3 is also 32.6?

gwaugh said:

Ok, thanks for all of the advice and input. I'm starting to get a better understanding but my next purchase is going to be a pH meter so I can actually see and track what is going on in my mash. Any suggestions for a decent one that doesn't break the bank?

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I tentatively recommend the new Hach pH+ as they generally make good gear and I have experimented with it some. Others have tried it too and while there have been some new product problems (units arrive dead) the company has been extremely cooperative (e.g. replaced a unit which the guy fried by putting the batteries in backwards). The Milwauke MW102 (I think it is) is also getting good comments from people here.

gwaugh said:

I think I will try the technique of holding the darker grains until the end of the mash next. I have read about it in several places including Gordon Strong's book.

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If you do that then there is danger that your mash pH will be too high such that you would have to add acid. Then when you put the dark grains in at the end the acid from them is added. The yeast will, in general, take the beer to the pH they want so that may not be a problem (provided you got the pH right for the conversion). Equipped with a pH meter you can do test mashes with small amounts of grain to see where the actual mash pH is likely to fall. I'd suggest that before you try separation. For 10% roast barely your pH should go to about 5.5 if all the grains are mashed together.

gwaugh said:

As for my Ward report it is dated 4-17-2014 so its a couple months old. If my actual bicarbonate is 32.6 am I correct in assuming my total alkalinity as CaCO3 is also 32.6?

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OK. I wrote to them in May so your report doesn't confirm either way. Anyone out there with a recent (Jun) Ward Labs report with pH > 8?

No, your alkalinity is 0.58 mEq/L. Unfortunately, in the US, that value is often reported multiplied by 50 and that gets you 29 'ppm as CaCO3' which is what is on your report. Ward Labs was using (or, really, misusing) and old method of estimating bicarbonate and carbonate ion contents from P alkalinity (which they were measuring at the wrong pH) and M alkalinity (the 29 number). All you need to know is the M alkalinity. This isn't much of a problem unless your pH > 8 (as yours is).

I found the Milwaukee on Amazon for about $106, which isn't too bad but I couldn't find the Hatch pH+ on their website. I see the Milwaukee has ATC but from what I've read you are better off cooling your sample to room temp. Is there a good source for instructions on use, calibration, and storage anywhere for someone new to using a pH meter? The reviews on Amazon seemed to indicate the instructions are not geared towards the inexperienced. Also I remember hearing Palmer and JZ on a Brew Strong episode saying the probes tend to go bad and need to be replaced. How often does that happen?

gwaugh said:

I found the Milwaukee on Amazon for about $106, which isn't too bad but I couldn't find the Hatch pH+ on their website. I see the Milwaukee has ATC but from what I've read you are better off cooling your sample to room temp. Is there a good source for instructions on use, calibration, and storage anywhere for someone new to using a pH meter? The reviews on Amazon seemed to indicate the instructions are not geared towards the inexperienced. Also I remember hearing Palmer and JZ on a Brew Strong episode saying the probes tend to go bad and need to be replaced. How often does that happen?

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I have posted quite a lot about my experiences with the Milwaukee ph56. I would not recommend it, although I think there are a few who have used it with success. Mine was sent back to the manufacturer twice, and three new electrodes purchased and it is currently not working properly. It's rare that a probe would "go bad" if handled properly, but that assumes getting an electrode that works properly in the first place (which only one of them did).

For good instructions on pH meters and calibrate, the "sticky thread" at the top of the brew science forum written by AJ deLange is a great one!

I always take AJ's advice with a large dose of alkalinity (lime (is) not bicarbonate)... and Yooper's with a bit of chloride (cause she is sweet)... and... now that metaphor is now terribly abused!

I recently upgraded my Milwaukee to the MW102 and have been very happy with it. I did wind up swapping probes with my older model since there was a difference in stability tests. I agree with Yooper that handling and storage might be key. My first probe (pen type) went off the rails fairly quickly. At least for the Milwaukees, keeping the probes hydrated in storage solution (per the manufacturer instructions) and out of extreme temperatures seems to have extended its life.

As for water management, do not get frustrated. Stick with it and sooner or later, it will become second nature. There is tremendous value in measurement throughout the brewing day - in the mash tun and in the kettle - and a lot to learn. I learn better through experience - so proving that something will happen sticks better. I sacrificed several brew days to ensuring I understood the right ways to measure and log - and revisited with finished beer to get an idea of impact. If the Water book is too difficult (I read it three times to really understand some of it) - then give the Bru'n Water Knowledge page a go. Try the different calculators until you find something that is easy for you... The results are well worth the effort.

AJ, Martin, Yooper and others are happy to help out as you run into questions!

gwaugh said:

I found the Milwaukee on Amazon for about $106, which isn't too bad but I couldn't find the Hatch pH+ on their website.

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http://www.hach.com/pocket-pro-ph-tester-with-replaceable-sensor/product?id=17990686211

gwaugh said:

I see the Milwaukee has ATC but from what I've read you are better off cooling your sample to room temp.

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That is true as it puts less demand on ATC (and is less physically stressful on the electrode) but you still want ATC. A good stable meter with ATC at its best and using NIST technical buffers is capable of accuracy of about ± 0.02 pH. You don't want to give any of that accuracy away.

gwaugh said:

Is there a good source for instructions on use, calibration, and storage anywhere for someone new to using a pH meter?

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https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ph-meter-calibration-302256/
I leave it to you to decide whether it is good or not.

gwaugh said:

The reviews on Amazon seemed to indicate the instructions are not geared towards the inexperienced.

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If you are a poet or philosopher who has never been in a lab before measuring pH will seem, at first, pretty bewildering. Expect a learning curve and expect to get some funny results at first. I always suggest that someone new to use of a pH meter run about the house (mostly the kitchen) checking the pH of everything (milk, soda, fruit juices, vinegar, baking soda solutions, lemon juice, bleach...). You can find the expected pH of these products on line.

gwaugh said:

Also I remember hearing Palmer and JZ on a Brew Strong episode saying the probes tend to go bad and need to be replaced. How often does that happen?

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That depends on the electrode and how you use it. Most important is to not stress the glass of the bulb with temperature extremes. As noted above all samples should be cooled to room temperature before immersion of the electrode.

There have been notable improvements in pH meters in the last decade years and one of those has been in electrode life. I have electrodes that have gone well over 3 years (I think I have one that is pushing 5 now). I can't say on the Hach because it has only been on the market since last fall. The electrode is replaceable ($67).

mchrispen said:

I always take AJ's advice with a large dose of alkalinity (lime (is) not bicarbonate)... and Yooper's with a bit of chloride (cause she is sweet)...

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So I must be sour (acidic)! Or perhaps this refers to my ancestry. I have quite a large Pommy component but mostly Italian.

just a salt metaphor! and a lousy one at that. Perhaps somewhat on target as you advocate sauermaltz? There will always be a beer waiting for you (a good one too... I know a few folk) and some warm conversation whenever you come near Austin!

I cannot thank you enough for the advice and helping to keep me straight!

I am enjoying brewing sans meter thanks to Bru'n Water (BNW) and my beers couldn't be better. Download and learn it first. BNW gets you within range and the meter is for fine tuning IMO.

Just kicked a keg of a wicked good porter not unlike Edmund Fitzgerald and the key to darker beers is mashing at a pH a tad higher than typical, and I used 5.6 for the porter. Only water salt added was a few grams of pickling lime (our water is similar). Acidify sparge to same (my MO) This may sound greek now, but it should eventually sink in once you get BNW. Do NOT be afraid to post a recipe and ask for suggestions, we like telling people what to do...

zwiller said:

I am enjoying brewing sans meter thanks to Bru'n Water (BNW) and my beers couldn't be better.

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I wouldn't wager much on that one.

mchrispen said:

just a salt metaphor! and a lousy one at that.

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No, not that bad. But are you implying that I am a proton donor or an electron pair acceptor?

Hermit said:

I wouldn't wager much on that one.

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Seriously, man. My last meter was used extensively to track the accuracy of BNW until the electrode finally went. Having gone through 3 meters in 20 years of brewing I am enjoying the fruits of Martin's labor and am happy to free of the maintenance associated with a meter.

It's true that with experience you shouldn't get many surprises from your pH readings but they do occasionally come along as not every bag of a particular brand of malt has the same parameters. I would no more put my pH meter aside than my thermometer but that's me.

While a brewing water chemistry program can get you close, having that final bit of QC to check that the mash's pH ended in the right range can still be helpful. In addition, there are those cases where a particular grain doesn't hold true to the assumptions of the program. Checking pH is still a good idea, if you have the equipment.

For instance, I'm hearing now that smoked malts seem to produce a bit more acidity than their color would indicate. Since Bru'n Water is keyed to malt color for base and crystal malt acidity, this will be something that I need to look into. (maybe that is why my last batch of Brown Porter made with a smokey brown malt from Crisp, had its pH end up about 0.05 too low?)

You won't know unless you check! (at least you won't be far off)

Agreed. I am not saying a meter is not a valuable tool, it is, but I think a meter is just gonna frustrate the OP until he understands the basics of brewing water chemistry.

Alright, so I have decided on the Hach meter and I've started using the Bru'n spreadsheet. My plan is to brew nothing but darker styles until I'm happy with the results. I know it would be better to stick with the same recipe but I feel I would end up getting bored drinking the same beer continuously. I want to thank everyone for their help and input. I'm am feeling far less frustrated and less confused. Part of the reason I love homebrewing is the process itself and my excitement/obsession level is ramping back up as a result of all the help on this forum. Thanks again!