Water help, with report.

Water continues to befuddle me even though I have been trying. I got my water report done over the summer after moving and tried adjusting my water using beersmith, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how to use it properly so I used a spread sheet (can't remember which) to estimate some mineral additions. Using a Mac limits my water options, I think. I have been splitting my house water 50/50 with distilled, then adding 3 grams of gypsum at mash and 1 Calc Chloride, 4.1 gypsum at sparge and 1.4 calc Chloride for hoppy beer. I have been moderately happy with the results. At NHC I desperately searched out help with my report and was told by Jamil to just brew with it. So I did. First with an obsidian stout clone, which came out good, but lacked the clarity in roastiness that the real obsidian has. Then I went back to cutting the water before brewing the hop burst IPA recipe from Mitch Steele in zymurgy without cutting or changing the water. The beer is harsh, way too harsh for how the hops were added(6grams FWH, then 3oz at 15 min). When it warms up I like it more, but isn't anywhere near what it should have been. My question is, should I stick to cutting and build up? Is my water as bad as I think? I do not have a pH meter but will look into one if the price is reasonable. I know using all distilled and building up would be ideal, I just don't like spending so much money on water, but will if I cant build from what it have. Any tips and advice for what I should be doing would be greatly appreciated.

pH: 7.4
Total dissolved solids: 447

Sodium, Na: 29
Potassium, K: 2
Calcium, Ca: 83
Magnesium, Mg: 20
Total hardness, CaCO3: 291
Nitrate, NO³-N: 2.5
Sulfate, SO⁴-S: 6
Chloride, CL: 122
Carbonate, CO³: 122
Bicarbonate, HCO³: 191
Total alkalinity, CaCO³: 157

Thank you,
Hamburgeler


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Your level of alkalinity can definitely benefit from dilution with RO or DI water. I would probably dilute more than 1:1 - more like 3:1 RO to tap. Also make sure to treat for chlorine or chloramines with campden or slow carbon filtering. Chloride is also high - so again, dilution is necessary.

FYI - I use a Mac and have no problem using Bru'n, EZWater or Brewer's Friend. I stopped using BeerSmith for water calculations - preferring to treat strike and sparge water's separately to manage mash pH. Give Bru'n Water a second go - I really like the results.

Outside of the Primer recommendations (and even then) making mineral adjustments without a pH meter is really working blind. Get the mash pH right - that will make the largest benefit.

mchrispen said:

FYI - I use a Mac and have no problem using Bru'n,

Click to expand...

How do you do that? If I try to open a Word or Excel document I see no letters or numbers. In order to do so I have to select the entire document, and change the font. I can't do that with Bru'n because the cells are protected.

AJ, I am using Office 2011 for Mac, but the previous versions also worked. Perhaps there is a font package missing from your installation? Of course it also works in Windows on Parallels but I have stopping using that since our office moved to Office 365 and hosted Exchange.

Anyway - you can see the screen cap.



And a comparison of the Mac screenshot to the same document in Windows (Office 2013)



I haven't tried any of the shareware or freeware spreadsheets like OpenOffice. Not a huge Microsoft fan, but necessary in my day to day job.

It works well on my MacBook Pro using Libre

Thanks for the response mchrispen! Sorry for the late response, didn't have power for a while. I will revisit bru'n water once I get internet back. Aside from the primer and trial and error, are there any recommended readings that really simplify water? I'm not really sure what I to target for specific beer styles.

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hamburgeler,

In that case, I would set aside Bru'n for a few brews and focus on following the Primer. It greatly simplified the approach and makes broad recommendations based on style. While I feel like I mostly have a handle on water additions - I am continually learning and refining by reading this forum (and others) and listening to the experts like AJ, Martin and others. The Knowledge section of Bru'n Water is really the best high-level overview I have read and it is entirely approachable. At the end of the day - getting a handle on your process and using a pH meter will provide the best benefit to your brewing. Once you are confident, then start stepping into more advanced usage - reading more technical material (Palmer/Kaminsky - Water) and experimenting with Bru'n Water.

Reviewing your water profile - 3/4 of the liquor should be RO... and at that point, why not 100%? The cost delta is negligible and you have a perfectly blank sheet to begin with... and the Primer will be the perfect starting point.

Thanks again mchrispen! I will do just that. My next planned batch is a low abv brown ale(in the vain of troeg's rugged trail), and I will use the primer. I have my eye on the Hach pH meter, but will continue to read up on usage before buying one and will be studying bru'n water knowledge base.

As a side note, I was playing around on brewers friend during my lunch while planning my next brew(before I noticed your response). I plugged in my water report with dilution and it said with a bit of gypsum the water would work for a balanced amber ale? This is the type of stuff that made it so confusing for me, I am not sure if that target would be good for a low abv brown ale. Maybe I am not using brewers friend correctly. A few nights with the knowledge base will help.

Many thanks,
hamburgeler

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It is reasonable to assume that you will have a large component of crystal/caramel malt as well as some roast in the grist. Those malts will tend to drive the pH down in the mash more dramatically than base malt. Here recipe is key and your water's alkalinity useful - to a point.

Let me point out something - and please don't take it critically:

1. How do you know that "Balanced Profile" is ideal for your desired flavor profile? Why not malty or hoppy? It looks like you are brewing a nut brown ale. So what flavor characteristics and body do you want to emphasize? Do you have an idea of the water composition that Troeg is applying?
2. Assuming the profile is correct, the green stars simply mean you are within the profile - and do not tell you if you are hitting the correct room temperature mash pH.

Always take the profiles with a grain of salt... they are guidelines not absolute targets. You should mineralize to the level that results in your preference.

Best advice given to me by AJ: Get the mash pH correct and the rest is just seasoning. The approach above is seasoning without any mash pH consideration - which requires your water + mineral additions + recipe to estimate.

I challenge you to brew this with your 50% distilled dilution - and no mineral additions (reviews point to a more traditional brown ale). That 50/50 dilution should leave you with 61 chloride and a fairly malt forward beer. Then you can input your recipe into Bru'n, with 50% dilution by RO and get an idea of where the mash pH may fall. My guess is that you will need a little lactic acid to get to 5.4/5.5. (I would personally target Brown Malty) as a profile.

Mchrispen,

Don't worry, I am not taking it critically.

1. I don't know, which is the problem. I don't know what I am shooting for, and I rarely brew the same beer multiple times especially not in a row. Nut brown ale would be correct. I do not know what Troeg's is doing to their water. They stopped making the beer, so I won't be able to compare(except seasonal brewery only release which I haven't been able to get).

2. Got it. Which is what I figured, but that version doesn't estimate pH and the advanced version was a bit daunting.

I plan on using the primer for my next batch, it will give me some time to figure things out and maybe get a pH meter. If it comes out well, I will try to brew it again soon with dilution to compare, but can't guarantee I will, not sure I will be able to drink that much brown ale. The targets is the biggest issue, as I am not sure what to target for the style I am brewing, but it I will focus on the pH first as that seems most important. I have a lot of bruin water to read this weekend!

Thank you again,
Hamburgeler

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Stylistic profiles will come more naturally as you research. The real problem is that so many are just not accurate and seldom represent what happens inside the brewery. I really appreciate what Martin has done to show "decarbonated" profiles for many regions and styles in Bru'n.

Here's the rule of thumb that I use:
1. Is the beer hop forward? If so - consider raising the sulfates (gypsum)
2. Is the beer malt forward? If so - consider raising the chlorides (calcium chloride)
3. Is the beer supposed to have a minerally tone (like some Burtonized Pale Ales) - then consider both sulfate and chloride levels.

Folks will disagree with that - but I think as a guideline - it is helpful.

Please dilute your next batch water at least 50% - your alkalinity levels are just too high and really need the dilution. 75% would be even better. This will also help your beer naturally come closer to a reasonable mash pH. The risk with a high pH is tannin extraction and a puckering astringency.

I will dilute if I don't go 100% distilled! I'm working through five gallons of harsh beer because I didn't dilute last time, I will not make that mistake again. Thank you for taking the time to help me, very much appreciated. I might just pull the trigger on the pH meter. If I'm not doing everything I can to make the best beer possible I am just wasting my time.

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Mchrispen,

I brewed the beer with 100% distilled and only shifted from the primer slightly. Spent a good amount of time with bru'n water and used 1% acid malt and less than a gram of baking soda in addition to the calcium chloride quantity mentioned in the primer. I targeted 5.4 pH. I know I can't measure pH yet, but I did order the hach pH meter. Unfortunately it is not expected to ship until March 17th. However, I did have a really smooth brew despite tightening up my grain mill slightly. I think the tighter mill, larger sparge due to small grain bill and water closer to proper pH all contributed to my 87% efficiency. Thanks for your help. I'll update with notes on the meter once it comes in.

-hamburgeler

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Hey thanks for updating. That is good news!

At the rate people are buying Hach meters - I wonder if they realized so many orders are coming from recommendations here? AJ, I think we need you to recommend mutual funds now.