As a BIAB AG brewer do I invest in pH meter, lab reports, etc.?

Caution, long "therapy session" (for me) post follows:

I'm looking to improve my mash efficiency in to kettle (currently running 60% :-( ). My resulting brews taste fine, but, there's always that lingering question "could it be better?". My mash temps have been spot on, but, I've no idea what mash pH has been as I can't use my titration pH test (see below) with the mash extract as it affects the color of the titration results. I understand this is a similar problem with colorpHast strips too especially with dark beers. I want the flexibility to brew lighter colored beers as well as dark hearty porters/stouts. While I'm not a "hop head" I do like the hop aroma with hop bittering balancing the malt sweetness.

Reading threads on this site and John Palmer's book on "Water: A Comprehensive Guide for Brewers" pH is the numero uno impact (from water) on mash efficiencies and beer flavor with ion concentrations being second. From the research I've gleaned about pH meters you need to get an accurate one (+/- 0.05 pH). They cost minimum $85 plus test solutions, probe storage solution and electrodes don't last forever with replacement electrodes running in the $35-$60 range. Basically a pricey investment. Ward Labs is charging $40 for a brewing water test analysis. I've got my local town's last inorganics and metals test results but it's from May 2013. I also have aquarium titration test kits for GH/KH, Ca++ and pH plus a TDS probe (for my fish pond water). I'll provide my water profile numbers later but first here are what I think my options are for "tweaking my water" such that mash pH might settle into an appropriate range for mashing and not investing in a pH meter which would result in my "chasing the numbers" vs relaxing and having fun :

Start with a blank slate of DI water (I have a home water distiller) and use AJ Delange's guidelines in Brewing Water Chemistry Primer thread letting mash pH and flavor ions "fall where they will" with my taste buds being final arbitrator?

Plug my numbers from below into Brunwater to get salt/acid additions again letting mash pH and ions "fall where they will"?

Use the Advanced Water Calculator at Brewersfriend.com and the GH/KH, Ca++ and pH numbers from my Aquarium Pharmaceuticals titration kits to determine salts and acid additions also letting pH and ion levels "fall where they will".

Use my tap water "as is" and campden tabs for chlorine/chloramine removal increasing my mash time and/or grain bill to get higher mash efficiencies.

$85 for pH meter plus maintenance cost plus the additional time it will take during mash-in to calibrate meter, cool samples for multiple measurements, doing multiple salt/acid additions to dial-in mash pH to 5.4 range before mash-in clock is started (already takes 5 hours for me to brew) makes me wonder "is it really going to make a major difference in the final product?"

Sure, I could just try each of the options above and decide for myself but that's going to take many months of test brews. I was hoping someone reading this has "been there, done that" and could provide their experience .

Here are my water profile numbers:

From my Town's 5/2013 inorganics/metals analysis

pH: 6.55 SU
Chloride: 37 mg/l
Sulfate: 22.4 mg/l
Sodium: 18.1 mg/l
Calcium Hardness: 83 mg/l
Total Hardness: 119 mg/l (as CaCO3)
Total Alkalinity: 77.6 mg/l
TDS: 186 mg/l

From my titration test kits and TDS meter (for my pond):

GH: 214.8 ppm
KH: 107.4 ppm
Ca++: 100 ppm
TDS: 179ppm
pH: between 8 and 9 but color is closer to 8

For all intents and purposes, there is no difference between BIAB and regular AG. Water pH and salt balances are important either way. Your "could it be better" is the point. Sure.. but at what cost.. both time and dollars. It's up to you.

I have been in that boat too. I am also an AG BIAB brewer. Faced with those same choices, I chose to go the tap water / campden route. I use Bru'n Water to predict my mash PH and use Phosphoric to neutralize my tap waters high residual alkalinity. The benefit of this approach is that it is the cheaper way to go. I figure if this makes the improvements I expect, then I can always expand into the PH meter and other more complicated means of controlling my brew.

I will say this though. On my first brew using this method, a northern English brown ale, I had much better success than a previous NE Brown where I did not treat my water. I have gotten an odd astringency whenever I have tried darker beers with my city water.

My theory is use the KISS method to build up to greater complexity and get complex only when it is needed. This is one of the benefits of BIAB so I like to keep that thought process in all aspects.

I do BIAB and get around 78-83 % efficiency with this method:

1. pH adjustment with lactic acid (more on this below)
2. Batch sparge with 1 gallon of cold water

Try using the Bru'n Water spreadsheet to calculate an approximate amount of lactic acid that would adjust your water levels. I usually use about 4.5 US gallons of water in total. To this, I add 2-4 ml of 80 % lactic acid, more for lighter coloured beers, less when I use more dark grains.

A little over 1 gallon of that water then goes into a bucket while still cold. I do my mash, giving it a stir every 15-20 min. Then I pull out the bag, let it drip for a while, then dunk it in the cold water, stir the grains properly, and then squeeze every drop of wort I can out of it.

This gives about 78-83 % efficiency. I used to get around 60-65 before I started with this method. I only ran one batch where I added lactic before I also started with the sparge, so it's a bit hard to isolate the effects here. However, I'd guess the pH adjustment is more important.

del said:

I do BIAB and get around 78-83 % efficiency with this method:

1. pH adjustment with lactic acid (more on this below)
2. Batch sparge with 1 gallon of cold water

Try using the Bru'n Water spreadsheet to calculate an approximate amount of lactic acid that would adjust your water levels. I usually use about 4.5 US gallons of water in total. To this, I add 2-4 ml of 80 % lactic acid, more for lighter coloured beers, less when I use more dark grains.

A little over 1 gallon of that water then goes into a bucket while still cold. I do my mash, giving it a stir every 15-20 min. Then I pull out the bag, let it drip for a while, then dunk it in the cold water, stir the grains properly, and then squeeze every drop of wort I can out of it.

This gives about 78-83 % efficiency. I used to get around 60-65 before I started with this method. I only ran one batch where I added lactic before I also started with the sparge, so it's a bit hard to isolate the effects here. However, I'd guess the pH adjustment is more important.

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Thanks for this info I have 10% phosphoric acid or I might try the saurmatlz approach based on Brunwater or brewersfriend.com adv water calc. As for cold water sparging your holding back 1/4 of your full volume mash water? I use the biabacus spreadsheet from BIABrewer.info to scale recipes and calc my mash volumes. I need to research how biabacus handles mash water held back for a sparge. Of course, I thought the concept of biab was to eliminate the need to sparge and/or 3v brewing.

Foosier said:

I have been in that boat too. I am also an AG BIAB brewer. Faced with those same choices, I chose to go the tap water / campden route. I use Bru'n Water to predict my mash PH and use Phosphoric to neutralize my tap waters high residual alkalinity. The benefit of this approach is that it is the cheaper way to go. I figure if this makes the improvements I expect, then I can always expand into the PH meter and other more complicated means of controlling my brew.

I will say this though. On my first brew using this method, a northern English brown ale, I had much better success than a previous NE Brown where I did not treat my water. I have gotten an odd astringency whenever I have tried darker beers with my city water.

My theory is use the KISS method to build up to greater complexity and get complex only when it is needed. This is one of the benefits of BIAB so I like to keep that thought process in all aspects.

Click to expand...

Good point on remembering the KISS principal. Thanks for the response to my long winded post .

youngdh said:

Thanks for this info I have 10% phosphoric acid or I might try the saurmatlz approach based on Brunwater or brewersfriend.com adv water calc. As for cold water sparging your holding back 1/4 of your full volume mash water? I use the biabacus spreadsheet from BIABrewer.info to scale recipes and calc my mash volumes. I need to research how biabacus handles mash water held back for a sparge. Of course, I thought the concept of biab was to eliminate the need to sparge and/or 3v brewing.

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I may have made my sparging process sound more complicated than it is, I definitely agree with "KISS". I just estimated lactic acid addition using Bru'n Water once, tried it, got good results, and stuck to it.

Now let me tell you all about my sparging... There are no three vessels or anything complicated. I have a kettle, a bag, and a $2 green plastic 2.5 gallon bucket of the sort you'd use for cleaning floors.

I measure out my mash water into the kettle, add lactic and stir. Then I pour off just under 1/4 of this water into the bucket. I heat the rest, and mash in my bag. After mash, I lift the bag up, let it run off a bit, then put it into the cold water and stir the grain. I pour the resulting wort into my kettle, add FWH and start heating for the boil.

The bag is now cool enough to squeeze by hand, so I do that for a couple of minutes, usually resulting in another 1-1.5 quarts of wort. This results in very low grain absorption, and that helps efficiency up.

I'd say that the only simpler way to do this would be to just lift the bag up, let it run off for a bit, then dump the grain. You'd lose quite a bit of efficiency, but grain is so cheap it doesn't really matter.

This is what I used to do, but I found that my efficiency changed a lot, and I think partly due to the grain bill. More wheat made it more absorbent, and so efficiency suffered, etc. I don't really care much if my efficiency is 65-70 or 78-83, but I want it to be relatively consistent like that. Otherwise, recipe formulation turns into too much guesswork for my liking.

Oh, and regarding how to calculate the sparge water. I use Beersmith, where I can add my sparge water in "Kettle top-off". Otherwise, I'd say just pull off your sparge water, and heat your strike water maybe 1 degree more to compensate.

I am in the same situation as the OP. I've started doing mineral additions to distilled water (since my tap water is crap...) because I wanted to see how much "better" I could make my beers. I use BrunWater and adjust the mash thickness (1.25 to 2.0 qts/lb) to get the pH in the 5.3-5.5 range. If it isn't possible to get it in this range with an appropriate mash thickness, I add a small amount of acid malt in the mash acidification page of BrunWater or add minerals until it gets there. But because I can't justify spending the $$ for a pH meter yet, I am in the "let the pH fall where it may" category. My results have shown that BrunWater likely anticipates the pH value with relatively good accuracy. I do NOT do a full volume BIAB, however. Like I said, I adjust mash thickness to get an appropriate pH value and use the "pour through" sparge to get to my desired pre-boil volume. My first attempt at doing the method I describe above I went from 65% efficiency (full volume BIAB) to 78% efficiency and my recent porter was a (BeerSmith Calculated) efficiency of 84%. Of course, these efficiencies are from different recipes, so I'm not sure how much difference that makes. I'm quite happy with the results and the beer was fantastic.

So for the time being, I'm quite content with continuing this method until I purchase a few more "upgrades" for my brewery before investing in a pH meter and all it's accessories.

Getting familiar with my water - and the mineral makeup's influence on a variety of beer styles has been a real eye opener for me... and I believe made a tremendous positive difference in my brewing. I am - however - beginning to believe I may have gotten too obsessive about it - and am trying to find the middle ground. It sounds like you are starting like I did - in the deep water, and there is a lot to be said to start over and evaluate what you enjoy about brewing - and how maniacal you wish to become.

Example: I have brewed an APA recipe now a total of 7 times to get it right - the last 3 with various ion levels to compare. I know where I want this APA to sit - and finally feel like I can make broader changes to the recipe and experiment more. Others would call this OCD. FYI - this means a significant investment in a high-flow RO system and a ton of research behind each recipe, manic measurements and notes along the way. The good news is that by the second or third brew of a given recipe - I measure a lot less and enjoy the process a lot more.

Start with a blank slate of DI water (I have a home water distiller) and use AJ Delange's guidelines in Brewing Water Chemistry Primer thread letting mash pH and flavor ions "fall where they will" with my taste buds being final arbitrator?

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This is more or less the method I used... although aided with Bru'n Water. The Primer is a great start as well - and I recently brewed a nut brown using the recommendations and love results.

RE: Using a meter: I submit that it is worth using for several brews to understand what is going on in the mash - and review - per your notes what caused certain things to happen. Should you spend +$100 on a meter? Depends on your budget and goals - but that seems to be the mark for reasonably good and stable meters.

Plug my numbers from below into Brunwater to get salt/acid additions again letting mash pH and ions "fall where they will"? /QUOTE]

You can and should target recipe specific profiles (with some reasoning and research) when you think that your beer will benefit. The proof is in the glass. That said - again - the general guidelines in the Primer is a great place to start - so the question is really - how much time and grain do you wish to spend experimenting?

Some comments on your water profile - there is a bit of alkalinity that would benefit from dilution with RO or DI, and keep in mind that dilution will impact all cations/anions - so I would go at least 50%, which may require some small acid adjustments to hit a decent mash pH. Use Bru'n (or an alternative) consistently for a few brews and try to manage a 5.3/5.4 mash pH. Take good notes - and really spend the time tasting the wort and final product to see if you are hitting your goals.

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So I did a BIABacus scaled down NB Hopquila DIPA yesterday, BIAB 2.5 gallon batch. My starting water was 4G of 50/50 tap/DI treated with half a campden tab. Per Brunwater and confirmed with Brewersfriend calculator I added 3g CaCl and 28ml H3PO4 to get my Ca up to 130ppm range for a bold hoppy beer and hopefully to bring pH to 5.2. I held back 0.5G from mash water to sparge at end of mash out giving me a liquor to grain ratio of 1.85 qt/lb. I mashed at 154F for 90 min stirring frequently followed by 10 min mash out then sparged with 170F 0.5G hold back water. I tasted the wort after the boil and it tasted very smooth with no astringency and a nice hop nose from the Mosaic hops. I also hit the recipe target OG on the nose!

I can't wait to finish final product in 7-8 weeks.


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mchrispen said:

You can and should target recipe specific profiles (with some reasoning and research) when you think that your beer will benefit.

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Can you explain this more? I've been targeting a pH of 5.4 because it's smack dab in the middle of the, "optimum range," per Bru'n Water. And this is for the hoppiest IPA's to the biggest of stouts. Should I be targeting different pHs for different beers?


And this is a great thread. I see myself in a lot of these posts.

Should I be targeting different pHs for different beers?

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I can only really give you my process, with the caveat that there is a lot of inference from research, so the accuracy of my assumptions is questionable. I am continually seeking to control those things that I can truly control in the brewhouse, and mash pH is a small tweak that I can use to nuance a beer, hopefully for the better. Obviously recipe, mash regimen, water makeup, proper fermentation control and beer handling are far more important than minor pH shifts.

First, nothing wrong with 5.4 as a target and that is where I prefer my hoppier beers. Martin has posted data points that imply a stronger hop expression in the kettle at slightly higher boil pH - and mash pH translates into the boil kettle, where it is reduced. I have seen more narrow ranges than 5.2-5.8, like 5.2-5.4, and since I have been able to control mash pH reasonably - been pushing mash pH up or down based on the beer style - and where I can find a data point that might justify it. I build from RO - so this process is fairly straightforward from a blank slate.

For example, I tend to mash wits/weisens and saisons targeting 5.2 mash pH, and that seems to enhance the sourness/acidity I expect in those styles. Wits might get a touch of calcium chloride where the saisons might get a little gypsum. A roastier beer, like a porter, I might push up to 5.5 to enhance the roast bitterness, where a milk stout might fall at 5.3 or so. It just depends. I will try to think about the style's region, look at the water profile and try to determine how the water is treated - and seek out some beers that will be similar to my recipe. I use Bru'n to model the additions and look at driving mash pH in a couple of directions, and think through what my goal is for a given beer.

I may brew couple of 1 gallon BIAB test batches and try to refine the mineral profile and recipe if needed before committing to a full 11 gallon volume brew. It's a handy way to evaluate side by side, and makes a great starter for larger batches. I very much enjoy this process and welcome the practice. I should add that I only submit to competition a few times a year - and while my scores have improved a lot, I don't have enough BJCP scores or wins that prove this makes a lick of difference, just the increased approval of my friends (with a few professional brewers and judges) and my own palate.