First Sour Saison and Cherry Sour Saison - Feedback?

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rwing7486

rwing7486

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Hey guys,

Looking at attempting my first Sour Saison. My idea is to make two batches of the recipe below and in one of them I plan to add cherries to the secondary by re-hydrating dried cherries (amount still TBD) for about two weeks prior to bottling. Thoughts on my recipe below?

My plan is too mash at 152 for 1 hr with a 90 minute boil. Not sure what an "ideal" bitterness/SG ratio is, but currently Im at 0.451. Also I am looking at replacing the Wyeast 3711 with Danstar Belle Saison yeast. My fermentation plan is to ferment for 3 days around 65 degrees and then ramp the temp up to about 75 degrees for 3 to 4 weeks, rack to secondary and age at room temp for a year.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.98 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.24 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.25 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.85 gal
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 5.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 25.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 77.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 88.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs 8.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 81.0 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 11.9 %
12.0 oz Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.1 %
1.00 oz Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 18.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 5 6.7 IBUs
1.0 pkg French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [50.28 Yeast 6 -
1.0 pkg Roselare Belgian Blend (Wyeast Labs #376 Yeast 7 -
 
I'd say you are heading in the right direction with your ideas. My two cents would be to use individual cultures of sacc, brett brux or lambicus, lacto, and pedio. It's what vinnie at Russian river does and a method that has worked very well for me. I've heard multiple times that roselare takes to long with less than stellar results....

Cherries don't really be to be rehydrated. I'd suggest the cherry puree that comes in the can. 1can to 5 gallons.
 
Double_D said:
I'd say you are heading in the right direction with your ideas. My two cents would be to use individual cultures of sacc, brett brux or lambicus, lacto, and pedio. It's what vinnie at Russian river does and a method that has worked very well for me. I've heard multiple times that roselare takes to long with less than stellar results....

Cherries don't really be to be rehydrated. I'd suggest the cherry puree that comes in the can. 1can to 5 gallons.
Click to expand...

Since I'm still kind of a noob to souring when would you add all 4 of the cultures....during mash or fermentation? If during fermentation would you add it at the same time with the yeast or would you add it after primary fermentation? also when using cultures how long do you age your beers in the secondary Before kegging/bottle conditioning?

Edit to above as I just looked at different cultures from Whitelabs - and I do see they have a few pre mixed cultures with ALL the bacteria you listed above: WLP655 BELGIAN SOUR MIX 1 and WLP665 FLEMISH ALE BLEND. Any experience with these?
 
First off I'd mash higher to give the bugs more to chew on, Russian River mashes as high as 158F for some of their beers. I would add all your yeast/bugs to the primary to give them all an equal opportunity to do their thing, then really there is no reason to move it to a secondary. I don't have a set time on how long I age my sours, I just taste them periodically and see if I like them or think they need more time. Generally 1+ years though.
 
Here is my new game plan: Mash at 156 degrees F.

Pitch Belle Saison yeast
-Ferment 1 week at 65 degrees F

-Raise temp to 80 degrees F

Pitch 1 vial of WLP650 - BRETTANOMYCES BRUXELLENSIS
-Ferment 2 weeks at 80 degrees F

Pitch 1 vial of WLP672 - LACTOBACILLUS BREVIS
-Ferment 2 weeks at 80 degrees F

Rack into secondary and store at room temp ~68 to 70 degrees F

Thoughts? is a culture of Pedio really needed? if so any suggested cultures out there?
 
I would personally pitch everything from the beginning. I have done this before with awesome results. This is also recommend in American Sour Beers. If you want the lacto to work, you will need to keep the IBU's under 15. I personally dont see any issue with using a blend of yeast/bugs, but also recommend using bottle dregs from sours that you like, to give it more complexity. These can be added at any time throughout its aging though.

As far as cherries go, I recommend fresh pitted or pit-less cherries. Freeze them to sanitize and rack on top of the mostly thawed cherries. you can do anywhere from 2-10 lbs, depending on how much you want the cherry to be present. Leave them for a minimum of 2 months but can certainly go longer. For my kriek, I currently have it on 8lbs of cherries, planning to go 9 months, and then re-rack to another 2 lbs for only 2 months. Ive never used the puree but have always been told to use fresh whole fruit when possible.

Good luck with everything, should turn out great whatever your process is!
 
finsfan said:
I would personally pitch everything from the beginning. I have done this before with awesome results. This is also recommend in American Sour Beers. If you want the lacto to work, you will need to keep the IBU's under 15. I personally dont see any issue with using a blend of yeast/bugs, but also recommend using bottle dregs from sours that you like, to give it more complexity. These can be added at any time throughout its aging though.

As far as cherries go, I recommend fresh pitted or pit-less cherries. Freeze them to sanitize and rack on top of the mostly thawed cherries. you can do anywhere from 2-10 lbs, depending on how much you want the cherry to be present. Leave them for a minimum of 2 months but can certainly go longer. For my kriek, I currently have it on 8lbs of cherries, planning to go 9 months, and then re-rack to another 2 lbs for only 2 months. Ive never used the puree but have always been told to use fresh whole fruit when possible.

Good luck with everything, should turn out great whatever your process is!
Click to expand...

Thanks FinsFan for the feedback. So since my IBU's are estimated at 25 should i skip the lacto all together? why does the amount of bittering affect the lacto? maybe doing a 100% all brett souring program would be a better idea?
 
rwing7486 said:
Thanks FinsFan for the feedback. So since my IBU's are estimated at 25 should i skip the lacto all together? why does the amount of bittering affect the lacto? maybe doing a 100% all brett souring program would be a better idea?
Click to expand...

I cant give you a scientific answer on why the hops affect the lacto, but it has something to do with the antibacterial nature of hops. I believe it hurts or kills the lacto. Im sure a quick google search would come up with a better answer, but the rule of thumb I follow is not to go over 15 ibus with most of my sours unless it is brett dominated. you can always adjust your ibus unless there is some reason you want them at 25. Unless you dryhop the crap out of it, you wont get any hops in the flavor anyway.
 
i'd be weary of following the example of a pro brewery such as RR, especially if this is your first sour. yes, vinnie pitches his lacto last - but he isn't using wimpy White Labs or Wyeast lacto. he's using a strain that will sour despite the presence of alcohol and lack of food.

i would pitch everything from the outset.

secondary: there are good reasons to use one for long-term aging, there are good reasons not to. personally i don't like headspace above my aging beer so i rack to secondary. others worry about the risks of racking, and/or want a funkier beer that apparently comes with leaving all the yeast under the beer, so they leave in primary.

those yeast/bacteria blends from the big labs do tend to produce only so-so sours. they are a good starting point, but in addition i would add some dregs from commercial sours. alternately you could go with some of the offerings from smaller labs, such as East Coast Yeast, which have a better track record.
 
sweetcell said:
i'd be weary of following the example of a pro brewery such as RR, especially if this is your first sour. yes, vinnie pitches his lacto last - but he isn't using wimpy White Labs or Wyeast lacto. he's using a strain that will sour despite the presence of alcohol and lack of food.

i would pitch everything from the outset.

secondary: there are good reasons to use one for long-term aging, there are good reasons not to. personally i don't like headspace above my aging beer so i rack to secondary. others worry about the risks of racking, and/or want a funkier beer that apparently comes with leaving all the yeast under the beer, so they leave in primary.

those yeast/bacteria blends from the big labs do tend to produce only so-so sours. they are a good starting point, but in addition i would add some dregs from commercial sours. alternately you could go with some of the offerings from smaller labs, such as East Coast Yeast, which have a better track record.
Click to expand...

I will def be drinking some Jolly pumkin beers and culturing some dregs from them. So for a good starting point - pitch my Belle saison yeast, WLP650 - Brett, WLP 672 - Lacto, and WLP661 Pedio all at the same time plus any dregs I have. Let it age and once complete save the dregs from my first run and use on future sour brews? I apologize if I am asking allot of questions - I just don't want to wait 18 months only to find out i screwed up and didn't get the outcome I was hoping for.
 
rwing7486 said:
Let it age and once complete save the dregs from my first run and use on future sour brews?
Click to expand...
yup, you can do that. you might want to pitch some fresh sacch when you make the second batch, since it'll be dead in the cake you pull from your first batch. re-using the entire cake is overkill in my opinion (a quarter of it is plenty, but people certainly do it. leads to some very fast souring but can be short on complexity.

rwing7486 said:
I just don't want to wait 18 months only to find out i screwed up and didn't get the outcome I was hoping for.
Click to expand...
nothing discussed in this thread would constitute a "screw up." just different opinions on different processes. you're going to be fine :mug:

you need a certain amount of zen when making sours. you can't control everything, and sometimes a batch won't turn out - either as expected, or at all. luckily it shouldn't happen too often if your fundamentals are right (sanitize, protect from oxygen, etc.)
 
sweetcell said:
yup, you can do that. you might want to pitch some fresh sacch when you make the second batch, since it'll be dead in the cake you pull from your first batch. re-using the entire cake is overkill in my opinion (a quarter of it is plenty, but people certainly do it. leads to some very fast souring but can be short on complexity.


nothing discussed in this thread would constitute a "screw up." just different opinions on different processes. you're going to be fine :mug:

you need a certain amount of zen when making sours. you can't control everything, and sometimes a batch won't turn out - either as expected, or at all. luckily it shouldn't happen too often if your fundamentals are right (sanitize, protect from oxygen, etc.)
Click to expand...

Would you suggest simulating aging my hops by baking them at 200 degrees F for 30 minutes? Also is Lacto needed in the souring process or is using Brett+Pedio+Dregs enough bugs/ complexity to do the job? Would you still add the dregs together with the primary yeast strain, brett and pedio or would you wait to add them to the secondary? my idea was to primary ferment in a 6.5 gallon carboy. Then rack over to secondary with less head space.
 
above all, remember that these are just my take... many ways to skin a cat (not that i don't love cats, i really do).

rwing7486 said:
Would you suggest simulating aging my hops by baking them at 200 degrees F for 30 minutes?
Click to expand...
i have no experience with oven-aging hops. personally i would skip that, and just use less of them (i.e. don't go over 10 IBUs). using aged hops is not a requirement for making a good sour. you can also buy aged hops for really cheap.

rwing7486 said:
Also is Lacto needed in the souring process or is using Brett+Pedio+Dregs enough bugs/ complexity to do the job?
Click to expand...
depends on a lot of things like how aggressive your pedio is, how much food it has access to, etc. but to answer your question in the strictest sense: no, lacto is not needed. pedio can get the job done. that being said, i would recommend adding lacto too.

fyi the dregs you add will likely contain some lacto. probably not a lot, but some.

rwing7486 said:
Would you still add the dregs together with the primary yeast strain, brett and pedio or would you wait to add them to the secondary?
Click to expand...
add them to primary for more impact. give them access to the virgin wort and all its sugary tastiness.

rwing7486 said:
my idea was to primary ferment in a 6.5 gallon carboy. Then rack over to secondary with less head space.
Click to expand...
that's what i do, but hey, that's just, like, my opinion, man...
 
sweetcell said:
above all, remember that these are just my take... many ways to skin a cat (not that i don't love cats, i really do).


i have no experience with oven-aging hops. personally i would skip that, and just use less of them (i.e. don't go over 10 IBUs). using aged hops is not a requirement for making a good sour. you can also buy aged hops for really cheap.


depends on a lot of things like how aggressive your pedio is, how much food it has access to, etc. but to answer your question in the strictest sense: no, lacto is not needed. pedio can get the job done. that being said, i would recommend adding lacto too.

fyi the dregs you add will likely contain some lacto. probably not a lot, but some.


add them to primary for more impact. give them access to the virgin wort and all its sugary tastiness.


that's what i do, but hey, that's just, like, my opinion, man...
Click to expand...

I have to agree with everything here. Most importantly though, the hops. I would never try to oven age your hops, just use less! If you arent sure how much to use to lower your IBUs, try using brewersfriend.com and input the recipe.
 
sweetcell said:
above all, remember that these are just my take... many ways to skin a cat (not that i don't love cats, i really do).


i have no experience with oven-aging hops. personally i would skip that, and just use less of them (i.e. don't go over 10 IBUs). using aged hops is not a requirement for making a good sour. you can also buy aged hops for really cheap.


depends on a lot of things like how aggressive your pedio is, how much food it has access to, etc. but to answer your question in the strictest sense: no, lacto is not needed. pedio can get the job done. that being said, i would recommend adding lacto too.

fyi the dregs you add will likely contain some lacto. probably not a lot, but some.


add them to primary for more impact. give them access to the virgin wort and all its sugary tastiness.


that's what i do, but hey, that's just, like, my opinion, man...
Click to expand...

I appreciate the feedback :) i will probably back my hops down then - to around 10. Probably switch to fuggles as they have a lower AA%. Only thing I am thinking is letting the saison yeast have a couple day head start (until i see activity in my air lock) and then add all my bacteria to the primary.
 
I have used dried cherries in sours with great results. Russian River uses dried fruit as well. Try to find a source that doesn't have sunflower oil in them (keeps them from clumping). The oil won't affect the taste, but it will kill your head retention.

I also recommend to pitch everything at once.
 
robotinc said:
I have used dried cherries in sours with great results. Russian River uses dried fruit as well. Try to find a source that doesn't have sunflower oil in them (keeps them from clumping). The oil won't affect the taste, but it will kill your head retention.

I also recommend to pitch everything at once.
Click to expand...

I am def going to use dried fruit. Watched that you tube video of Vinnie talking about their sour beer process. Still need to decide how many pounds I want to use though. I am thinking about 3 to 5 lbs
 
rwing7486 said:
I am def going to use dried fruit. Watched that you tube video of Vinnie talking about their sour beer process. Still need to decide how many pounds I want to use though. I am thinking about 3 to 5 lbs
Click to expand...

sweetcell said:
above all, remember that these are just my take... many ways to skin a cat (not that i don't love cats, i really do).


i have no experience with oven-aging hops. personally i would skip that, and just use less of them (i.e. don't go over 10 IBUs). using aged hops is not a requirement for making a good sour. you can also buy aged hops for really cheap.


depends on a lot of things like how aggressive your pedio is, how much food it has access to, etc. but to answer your question in the strictest sense: no, lacto is not needed. pedio can get the job done. that being said, i would recommend adding lacto too.

fyi the dregs you add will likely contain some lacto. probably not a lot, but some.


add them to primary for more impact. give them access to the virgin wort and all its sugary tastiness.


that's what i do, but hey, that's just, like, my opinion, man...
Click to expand...

Just curious, as I know most people say to add yeast and bacteria all at the same time, but White Labs is saying WLP650 is added to the secondary. Not sure why that is. have you used this strain of Brett before?

"WLP650 - Medium intensity Brett character. Classic strain used in secondary fermentation for Belgian style beers and lambics. One Trappist brewery uses this strain in secondary fermentation and bottling to produce their characteristic flavor."
 
rwing7486 said:
Just curious, as I know most people say to add yeast and bacteria all at the same time,
Click to expand...
the reason why this advice is given is to give the brett and bugs access to the simple sugars that are still present in unfermented wort. when you pitch after primary fermentation, it's a much rougher environment for the late-comers. bacteria will be much slower to sour (in some cases they might not do anything at all), and the brett will grow & ferment slower.

rwing7486 said:
but White Labs is saying WLP650 is added to the secondary. Not sure why that is.
Click to expand...
WL isn't saying that it MUST be pitched in secondary, they are simply saying that one brewery (Orval, the source of this strain) - uses it in secondary.

one reason that you might want to pitch brett in secondary, only, is that brett's characteristic flavors (barnyard, leather, fruity, etc) comes from its transformation of sacch's by-products into new ones. brewers at Orval have lots of brett on hand and don't want it fermenting sugars to grow, they only want it to create brett flavors. there may also be process reasons why one might not want to pitch in primary: avoiding the risk of contaminating your "clean beer" equipment, for example.

and regardless of when you pitch it - before or after the sacch primary - brett will be the secondary yeast because it is slower to get going. sacch will have finished its job by the time brett hits its stride. sacch is just too fast for slow n' steady brett.

rwing7486 said:
have you used this strain of Brett before?
Click to expand...
wlp650 is the first non-sacch that i ever used, and is the single strain of non-sacch that i have used the more often. i've moved away from it, but it was my first... you always remember your first <insert nostalgic music>
 
sweetcell said:
the reason why this advice is given is to give the brett and bugs access to the simple sugars that are still present in unfermented wort. when you pitch after primary fermentation, it's a much rougher environment for the late-comers. bacteria will be much slower to sour (in some cases they might not do anything at all), and the brett will grow & ferment slower.


WL isn't saying that it MUST be pitched in secondary, they are simply saying that one brewery (Orval, the source of this strain) - uses it in secondary.

one reason that you might want to pitch brett in secondary, only, is that brett's characteristic flavors (barnyard, leather, fruity, etc) comes from its transformation of sacch's by-products into new ones. brewers at Orval have lots of brett on hand and don't want it fermenting sugars to grow, they only want it to create brett flavors. there may also be process reasons why one might not want to pitch in primary: avoiding the risk of contaminating your "clean beer" equipment, for example.

and regardless of when you pitch it - before or after the sacch primary - brett will be the secondary yeast because it is slower to get going. sacch will have finished its job by the time brett hits its stride. sacch is just too fast for slow n' steady brett.


wlp650 is the first non-sacch that i ever used, and is the single strain of non-sacch that i have used the more often. i've moved away from it, but it was my first... you always remember your first <insert nostalgic music>
Click to expand...

Again thank you for all that feedback - knowledge is power. What strain of Brett do you use/recommend?
 
rwing7486 said:
Again thank you for all that feedback - knowledge is power.
Click to expand...
indeed it is. just remember that what i say is my opinion, based on my experience. expect others to say something different!

rwing7486 said:
What strain of Brett do you use/recommend?
Click to expand...
these days i have a few house blends of brett that i have grown up from dregs, or traded for.

if this is your first brett'ed saison, wlp650 is a fine way to go.
 
No need to pitch your sacch first. Saison yeasts tend to be monsters at fermenting, so all you'd be really doing is taking food away from the bus. When i use lacto i often pitch it alone, 1-2 days BEFORE adding my sacch yeasts. Same with brett. Let them get the head start, in a way.



Next thing I'll say is something i say on this board a lot....stop over thinking this! give the bugs a good starting point, and step away from the carboy. Let them take control. I know it seems like a very difficult and intricate style of beer to make....its really not. Sours are very much set & forget, and dont require complex grain bills (but they can if you so choose) complex brewing methods (again Unless you want) or stress.

As to the cherries, 3-5lbs is an EXTREMELY large amount of fruit. Dry fruit has nearly all the water removed, which is most of the weight. 3-5Lbs dry is like 8-12 lbs fresh/frozen.....unless you mean total, not per gallon. Most of what you'll read in regards to fruit sours, the weight is per gal, ie 2lbs/gal or lbs/barrel if reading about commercial beers.


As stated several times, but again for effect, the blends from the big 2, are pretty weak the first pitch. Very conservative. The blends from The Yeast Bay, Gigayeast, or East Coast Yeast have much more aggressive strains and cell counts. So I'd really suggest using pure cultures of different stuff, or buy the better blends from the small boutique producers (yay small business!!!)
 
MileHighBrewer said:
No need to pitch your sacch first. Saison yeasts tend to be monsters at fermenting, so all you'd be really doing is taking food away from the bus. When i use lacto i often pitch it alone, 1-2 days BEFORE adding my sacch yeasts. Same with brett. Let them get the head start, in a way.



Next thing I'll say is something i say on this board a lot....stop over thinking this! give the bugs a good starting point, and step away from the carboy. Let them take control. I know it seems like a very difficult and intricate style of beer to make....its really not. Sours are very much set & forget, and dont require complex grain bills (but they can if you so choose) complex brewing methods (again Unless you want) or stress.

As to the cherries, 3-5lbs is an EXTREMELY large amount of fruit. Dry fruit has nearly all the water removed, which is most of the weight. 3-5Lbs dry is like 8-12 lbs fresh/frozen.....unless you mean total, not per gallon. Most of what you'll read in regards to fruit sours, the weight is per gal, ie 2lbs/gal or lbs/barrel if reading about commercial beers.


As stated several times, but again for effect, the blends from the big 2, are pretty weak the first pitch. Very conservative. The blends from The Yeast Bay, Gigayeast, or East Coast Yeast have much more aggressive strains and cell counts. So I'd really suggest using pure cultures of different stuff, or buy the better blends from the small boutique producers (yay small business!!!)
Click to expand...

For the fruit I was planning on 3-5lbs of dried for a 5 gallon batch.

I do see a Saison/Brett Strain on yeast bay(http://www.theyeastbay.com/wild-yeast-and-bacteria-products/saison-brettanomyces-blend), but i still might go my own route and pitch individual cultures of Brett and Lacto and then pitch the dry saison yeast and go from there. Also after my first batch do you recommend washing the yeast/bacteria cake or just siphon some fresh wort on top of the cake?

My idea was to do about 3 to 4 back to back batches and let them sit for a year or more. 2 batches out of the 4 I will use dried fruit.
 
You shouldn't need the whole cake, but washing is not beneficial. Just take a quarter of your cake for each new beer. You can save the rest, either by feeding a starter periodically at room temp indefinitely or in the fridge for a couple months.
 
rwing7486 said:
For the fruit I was planning on 3-5lbs of dried for a 5 gallon batch.

I do see a Saison/Brett Strain on yeast bay(http://www.theyeastbay.com/wild-yeast-and-bacteria-products/saison-brettanomyces-blend), but i still might go my own route and pitch individual cultures of Brett and Lacto and then pitch the dry saison yeast and go from there. Also after my first batch do you recommend washing the yeast/bacteria cake or just siphon some fresh wort on top of the cake?

My idea was to do about 3 to 4 back to back batches and let them sit for a year or more. 2 batches out of the 4 I will use dried fruit.
Click to expand...

If you are just using brett and lacto, and you want to amp the character, you can think about adding bottle dregs from beers from Cascade or Jolly Pumpkin. Neither of those contain pediococcus if that's something you are trying to avoid and should increase the complexity and/or sourness of your finished beer. Good luck!
 
BigPerm said:
If you are just using brett and lacto, and you want to amp the character, you can think about adding bottle dregs from beers from Cascade or Jolly Pumpkin. Neither of those contain pediococcus if that's something you are trying to avoid and should increase the complexity and/or sourness of your finished beer. Good luck!
Click to expand...

Already planned on using dregs as well from Jolly Pumpkin :)
 

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