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Old 11-22-2012, 03:55 AM   #11
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Brett is ok up to about 18%. However, it doesn't sour.

Lacto and pedio are ok to about 8%, although there seems to be strains that can go higher.

Lacto hates hops. Anything above zero (some say 10 IBUs) will inhibit growth.

You want to make a strong sour. I'd suggest:
- A zero hop wort with lacto kept at 100 F for about 5 days. That should decently sour the wort. kept at 100 F.
- Boil all or part of the soured wort with hops.
- Aerate and add yeast and fresh bugs (Brett & Pedio, or a basic mix).
- Leave alone for a couple of years.

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Old 11-22-2012, 10:46 AM   #12
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I did a sour mash for 4 days on a Berliner Weisse and it was tart! I'm not sure how the timeline on a lacto pitched wort would differ, but 5 days sounds super sour. Yesterday, I listened to part of the Sunday Session interview with Dan Carey from New Glarus and there is some good info on lacto fermentation and sour mashing in there. He recommends getting a wine acidity test kit to measure % acidity instead of ph.

I've been working on recipe for a Dark Strong / Weiss wine hybrid and was thinking about brewing today, but I'm tempted to stretch the protein rest out to a couple days. If you haven't soured mash or wort before, keeping it CO2 purged is the key in my book.

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Old 11-23-2012, 10:18 PM   #13
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Thanks gang!
I'll be doing some further education and starting this in January.
...feel free to add anything to this post about "higher gravity sours" as you feel appropriate.
(Y'all rock!)

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Old 11-24-2012, 02:15 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calder

Lacto and pedio are ok to about 8%, although there seems to be strains that can go higher.

Lacto hates hops. Anything above zero (some say 10 IBUs) will inhibit growth.
It is not true that all lacto is not hop tolerant. I have a strain that contributed serious acidity in a 35ish ibu wort. I actually am working on isolating the strain out of the culture. Also lacto strains can produce ropy viscosity just like the Pedio everyone is familiar with. Now I do understand that what is normally repeated is typical of the easily available commercial strains from wyeast and whitelabs. There are other sources of bacteria like yogurt, sausage cultures, and some wine cultures as well. These alternative sources may not behave as what everyone has read and repeated.
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Old 11-24-2012, 02:44 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokinghole

It is not true that all lacto is not hop tolerant. I have a strain that contributed serious acidity in a 35ish ibu wort. I actually am working on isolating the strain out of the culture. Also lacto strains can produce ropy viscosity just like the Pedio everyone is familiar with. Now I do understand that what is normally repeated is typical of the easily available commercial strains from wyeast and whitelabs. There are other sources of bacteria like yogurt, sausage cultures, and some wine cultures as well. These alternative sources may not behave as what everyone has read and repeated.
Not to stray to far off topic, but have you played with any Fermtech stuff? I've got some FRM-25 to make Spanish Chorizo and Salumi with and the though had crossed my mind.
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Old 11-24-2012, 02:42 PM   #16
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I haven't played with fermtech but when I make some fermented goat sausages (hopefully before too long) I will try some. The bacteria species are different than what is typically referenced for beer making. I suspect that might be due to the influence of the yeast labs choosing Pediococcus cerevisiae or Pediococcus damnosus and sticking to those strains. The other factors for their choice may be off flavor production by the other species such as diacetyl. While the current cultures are considered heavy diacetyl producers there's a possibility that the species in the sausage cultures produce way more diacetyl than the standard beer strains.

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Old 11-24-2012, 06:47 PM   #17
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Aren't there any issues with "pre-souring" with lacto as far as the pH of the wort is concerned? Can't the lacto drop the pH too far to prevent the other organisms from doing their work over the next year?

Also, does anyone have a good resource for the classification (taxonomy) of all these wild beer microorganisms? There seems to be a lot of talk about just pedio and lacto, and not necessarily talk about the species level as we do with sacch and now more so brett.

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Old 11-25-2012, 04:59 PM   #18
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Presouring with bacteria in these cultures shouldn't really cause much problems. The beer will still attenuate because the brett is very acid tolerant. The sacch may have a rough time depending on how long you let the bacteria go first. Eitherway you're just giving the sourness a chance before you add the different species and strains of yeast to the party. The only effect I could see is that the presoured wort may leave more extract for the brett to consume increasing the brett flavors. The reason for the increased extract for the brett to consume would be a pH effect on the saccharomyces and subsequent decrease attenuation by saccharomyces. However most belgian strains of saccharomyces are very acid tolerant as are some of the more robust american ale strains like WLP001.

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Old 11-29-2012, 01:28 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almighty View Post
I've done a 1.085 O.G. Flanders Red with the Roeselare blend. It soured up nicely, the same as my 1.060 version. It also finished around 1.015 and had a very vinous quality. After 1.5 yrs I bottled half straight and added a lb of elderberries to the other half for 2 months. They are currently carbing up- so I can't wait to try them.

My recipe is here (the Super Flanders was just the first runnings diluted to 1.085)
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/201...nders-red.html
I'm into my first attempt at a Flanders Red. I made it on 11/24 (4 days ago). The OG was 1.073 and 19 IBUs. I used both Wyeast Roeselare and WLP Flanders Ale mix because I had them on hand. I pitched at about 67F, but overnight the temp dropped in my house to about 55F. There's no bubbling in the airlock, but there is a nice aroma in the closet where the plastic bucket fermenter is sitting. With your experience, anything to worry about?
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:38 PM   #20
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So you haven't seen any activity since pitching 4 days ago? No bubbling or positive pressure in the airlock?

You do want the Sacc yeast in both of the blends to ferment the bulk of the sugars, mostly to drive up the alcohol and kill off more of the bad tasting bacteria that could have made it into your beer. More than likely you are fine, but if you didn't see any activity for that high of a starting gravity you might want to add more Sacc yeast. Anything will work, I prefer a fruitier Belgian strain, but if you have some on hand I'd pitch that.

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