Best time to pitch bugs

In your experience, when is the best time to pitch the bugs for a Flander's Brown? I'm brewing Jamil's Oud Bruin recipe and he mentions using a clean yeast for primary (US-05), then racking to secondary and pitching the bugs (Wyeast 3763) when fermentation "slows considerably." I definitely want the beer to be sour, but not overly sour. Thoughts? I can post the recipe if needed.

3763 already has sacchro in it so i dont see the point in pitching another yeast to start it. id just use sour dregs vs the 3763 if you're going that route

dcp27 said:

3763 already has sacchro in it so i dont see the point in pitching another yeast to start it. id just use sour dregs vs the 3763 if you're going that route

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If the intention is for a less sour product the clean initial strain helps. I pitched a roselare culture to a brown ale that didnt finish as low as I wanted about a year ago and I'm really excited about the progress it's made and it's sourness.
If you end up pitching US-05 I'd suggest mashing a bit hot, so as to preserve a bit more of the fermentables for the bugs, possibly 154.

Yea, I guess the point of the Safale is to have a clean yeast ferment a bit before pitching the bugs, since traditionally Oud Bruins aren't overly sour. JZ talks about pitching the bugs earlier for a more sour brew and later for less, depending on personal preference.

Target FG is 1.020, that's after the 05 has fully run it's course so I'm thinking there should be a decent amount of food left over for the bugs, especially if I pitch them a little early.

I'm just wondering, if I choose to rack to secondary on day 3 then pitch the bugs: won't there be a whole bunch of sacc from primary swimming around in secondary, eventually settling into the cake? I guess it won't matter too much since most of them would be left behind in primary?

You will have saccharomyces left in the secondary, after day three or after week 3. The WY3763 also has saccharomyces, in addition to the brettanomyces and bacteria. During the long secondary aging, some autolysis will occur, which is desirable in a lambic as the autolyzed yeast provide amino acids and vitamins for the Brett and bacteria as nourishment. In a Flanders red or brown, you may wish to rack again at 4 weeks to remove the beer from the cake. Raj B. Apte recommends the following:

1- Primary ferment about one week with saccharomyces.

2- Transfer and secondary 4 weeks with bugs

3- Transfer again and tertiary for a year to 18 months

Rack onto fruit only after 6+ months of aging.

Here's a link to his discussion:http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml

Interesting read! Thanks for the responses.

cervezarara said:

You will have saccharomyces left in the secondary, after day three or after week 3. The WY3763 also has saccharomyces, in addition to the brettanomyces and bacteria. During the long secondary aging, some autolysis will occur, which is desirable in a lambic as the autolyzed yeast provide amino acids and vitamins for the Brett and bacteria as nourishment. In a Flanders red or brown, you may wish to rack again at 4 weeks to remove the beer from the cake. Raj B. Apte recommends the following:

1- Primary ferment about one week with saccharomyces.

2- Transfer and secondary 4 weeks with bugs

3- Transfer again and tertiary for a year to 18 months

Rack onto fruit only after 6+ months of aging.

Here's a link to his discussion:http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml

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Why wait 6 months to add fruit?

No one says you have to do anything. But, fruit in a lambic added early on gets lost. I'm of the camp that adds fruit all along the way. My unresearched opinion is that it "trains" the bugs to chew on fruit as well. I think it builds a colony that is ready for it.

The theory, too, is that you taste the beer, then choose the fruit to suit the beer once the bugs have done much of the work.

Makes sense, thanks for the explanation.