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Old 06-28-2012, 06:12 PM   #21
GilaMinumBeer
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Originally Posted by TheZymurgist View Post
But WHY does Webster adapt??? If they didn't, they would be seen as outdated, and their product wouldn't sell.

It is possible for once credible sources to loose credibility. Besides, if you haven't noticed, the standards for defining beer styles has adapted greatly to incorporate many of the newer styles that have recently been created, and will continue to do so.
Yes. Like Webster, the guidelines have adpated to include new styles (CDA) but unlike Webster they have not adapated to include new meanings for their existing entries.

As I said before, many styles were born simply because the originator had nothing else to work with or of dumb luck.
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Old 06-28-2012, 06:13 PM   #22
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Well, Bob, many/most brewers drink while brewing. If most people drank while driving I'd expect a lot more accidents. Dumb errors are unfortunately built into the process.
I don't know that "most" brewers are actually drinking while brewing, but it would be interesting to poll the audience. If anything, I could believe quite a few people having a beer or two while brewing, but not getting sh!t-faced and mistaking 2 oz. for 2 lb. or forgetting something insanely crucial.

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Brewers who absolutely must brew to style make my eyes roll a bit
Agreed. It seems to be working out for Sixpoint.

I love small wheat additions in my IPAs in place of carapils. I don't mind using other odd malts to create a tasty American IPA either. And I frequently straddle the 7.5 - 7.9% abv range. Is it an IPA? Extra IPA? Double IPA? Imperial IPA? Who cares.
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Old 06-28-2012, 06:30 PM   #23
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Recipes in metric.

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Old 06-28-2012, 06:48 PM   #24
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I don't know that "most" brewers are actually drinking while brewing, but it would be interesting to poll the audience. If anything, I could believe quite a few people having a beer or two while brewing, but not getting sh!t-faced and mistaking 2 oz. for 2 lb. or forgetting something insanely crucial.
I don't, because I brew early in the morning. But you're right, a poll would be in order here.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:27 PM   #25
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Even Webster adapts annually to incorporate modern habits. Whether YOU like it or not.
I was an English major, and am a writer and editor in the corporate world by day. The practice of the dictionary and grammar standards adapting to majority usage instead of established rules is a very modern phenomenon, like from the last 20 years. There is a HUGE debate in acedemia about this. Of course, I fall on the conservative side of preserving the rules, for the most part. New words and meanings should always adapt to modern times, but not to the point of accepting the dumbing down of society.

You know what the state of FL did when almost 80% of high school seniors failed the composition portion of the FCAT high school exit exam? Did they raise the education and preparation requirements? Nope, they lowered the passing test score. They accepted that the kids were getting dumber and catered to that dumbness, instead of pushing them to the established standard. That's today's society, but I for one am on the minority side of maintaining the standards instead of dumbing everything down.

In my world, it sucks that the dictionary feels the need to give credence to words like TTYL, bromance, gaydar, grrrl, prolly, and sammich by adding them to the dictionary. There's a reason we have a word called slang. It sucks that they've all but given up on being the guardians of their particular English language rules in the interest of selling a few more dictionaries, and I think the same thing about anyone who honestly believes that you can call any beer you want a Lager a Stout, despite the established definitions.

I'd love to see any of those of you that are giving me a hard time go buy the latest Sam Adams Imperial Porter, only to find out the bottle contains a non-alcoholic light beer. You won't be defending the brewer's right to take liberties with their beer name then, and will demand that the beer live up to the established definition of it's name. 100% of you.

It's just a silly arguement. There are established definitions for a reason! I have no issue with those definitions evolving over time, but you still have to recognize the current definitions as the current definitions. You can call a dog a pony till you're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is that based on the definition of its characteristics, it is a DOG!

Same goes for something like a Hefeweizen. I had an arguement with this guy the other day who said he was making a Hefewiezen with 30% wheat, 60% Two-row, and some Crystal, with Cascade hops and S-05 yeast. The dude can call that a Hefeweizen all he wants, but the FACT of the matter is it is not a Hefeweizen. It just doesn't fit the definition any more than it fits the definition of a Stout or a Coconut Creme Pie or Jabba the Hut. The "I can call it anything I want" arguement sounds suspiciously like the "I'm taking my ball and going home" arguement! We used to call that pouting.

Sorry this gets me all riled up. It just baffles me that this is a tough concept to grasp for so many peeps!
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:31 PM   #26
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Yes. Like Webster, the guidelines have adpated to include new styles (CDA) but unlike Webster they have not adapated to include new meanings for their existing entries.
The BJCP is far younger than most beer styles. Back in the days (17th century or so), ale wasn't defined as top-fermented beer, it was beer brewed without hops (or rather: beer was ale brewed with hops). Semantics change, practices change.

And what about the BJCP guideline for Scottish ale? Anyone ever had an actual Scottish ale with a peaty character? Of course not. It's a guideline based on what American homebrewers present as Scottish ale in competition.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:36 PM   #27
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When competing, sure, Tropher is correct. There has to be some way to define what is being judged. And on a corprorate level of brewing, I accept that. But on the BJCP level, it's a joke. It's all as subjectiveas the competance level of the judge holding the sample.

The tragedy here is that this mindset comkpletely disregards the romanticism of what it took for the originator to develope said beer. If you read into teh historical aspect of many styles, most came about of necessity and dumb luck. Noble hops were used cause that is all they could get, a certain malt was used cause it was the only thing available, etc...
I have to disagree here. I believe it can actually heighten the romanticism, and pay homage to those that were able to create a good final product working only with what they had. It gives others a way to copy the great beers that have defined the different styles. It also gives us a standard against which we can judge ourselves, something we can aspire to, and even something we can try to improve upon.

My question is, if you're so against using definitions outside of judging, what do you say when someone asks you what you're brewing? If it's similar to an IPA, wouldn't you call it an IPA? Or do you just call it beer and try to describe what the final product will taste like?
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:51 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by TheZymurgist View Post
My question is, if you're so against using definitions outside of judging, what do you say when someone asks you what you're brewing? If it's similar to an IPA, wouldn't you call it an IPA? Or do you just call it beer and try to describe what the final product will taste like?
You are missing my point. I agree with having definitions. I just do not agree with the strict, rigid adherance that Tophers rant centers around.

Case in point, a Heffeweisen. A particular poster was reamed because he proposed something taht varied from the strictest sense of teh guidelines taht Topher covets. "You cannot call THAT a Heffeweisen..."

To THAT mindset I call BS. Heffeweisen litearlly means wheat with yeast. That is what the brewer was proposing at the core. In fact, the ONLY thing that varied, drastically, from the guide was the choice of hop and an addition of smoked character. "It's not a noble hop, it can be a ..." Bah! Go back to your box! I say.

Am I saying you can call a Porter a American Lager? No. But don't tell me it's not a Porter anymore cause I decided to use a German hop instead of an English one. But, in the same respect don't expect to take best of show either.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:51 PM   #29
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There is a thin line if you really want to get techinal.

But I would call all of these IPAs... You could even make a case that they're all American IPAs.

7.6%, 65 IBUs, WLP001, US malts, Mixed US/Brit hops, 2nd-ary addition of lightly toasted oak chips, Brit dryhop
6.6%, 75 IBUs, WLP002, Brit malts, US hops, 2nd-ary addition of frozen raspberries, no dryhop
5.6%, 55 IBUs, WLP029, German and US malts, American hops, no 2nd-ary, German and US dryhop

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Old 06-28-2012, 07:54 PM   #30
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What grinds my gears? People who don't even do all-grain that proclaim themselves experts on certain styles and now start thinly veiled boasting threads about their recipe prowess and how others need to "use your noggin's".

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