Recipe advice for an All-Grain Belgian Christmas ale?

Hi all,

I'm fairly new to all-grain, but I wan't to brew a spiced ale to give away at xmas. I like the sound of a Great Lakes christmas ale clone I read about on here, but have a big starter of Wyeast 3787 ready for a Tripel I'm brewing this week and thought I'd give it a Belgian twist. I haven't brewed the tripel yet, so have a lot in the store cupboard to play with...

9kg Maris Otter Pale Malt
6Kg Belgian Pilsner
2kg Belgian Pale Malt
1.5kg Carapils
1kg Wheat Malt
1kg Roasted Barley
0.5kg Pale Rye

I also have a decent amount of Hallertauer Mittelfruh, Saaz, Styrian Goldings, Perle and Cascade. I was thinking of broadly following the proportions of the Great Lakes clone with some cinnamon and ginger in there. Yeast-wise I could use the 3787 starter or pitch some US-05/04 if that's going to be a problem getting done for Xmas, as I've read the Belgian strains can take a little maturation time. I've fiddled about some ideas in Beer Smith and here's what it spat out for a 23L batch at 70% efficiency.

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Wyeast 3787
Yeast Starter: 2L - 500billion cells
Batch Size (Gallons): 6
Original Gravity: 1.074
Final Gravity: 1.014
ABV: 8%
IBU: 30
Boiling Time (Minutes): 90
Color: 29.4
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 14 days at 20C (68F)
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 14 days at 20C (68F) plus bottle conditioning for at least 4 weeks

4kg Maris Otter 50%
2kg Belgian Pale Malt 25%
0.5kg Cara-pils 6.3%
0.5kg Pale Rye 6.3%
0.5kg Wheat Malt 6.3%
0.2kg Roasted Barley 2.5%
0.25kg Home made Amber Candi sugar 3.1%
1tsp Irish Moss

Styrian Goldings - 60mins (27IBU's)
Hallertauer - 10mins (3IBU's)

2 Cinnamon Stick - boil 60mins
30g Fresh grated ginger - boil 60mins

I do all grain with BIAB so was thinking of doing a single step infusion mash at 66C, followed by a two week primary and secondary phase but that's just my standard procedure. I might add more spice in secondary for some aroma, but don't want it to be overwhelming. I'm happy with telling those who I give it to that it may need more time in the bottle until it shines, but how long do you think would be ideal? If Belgian yeast too much trouble to get ready in time, would a couple of packets of S-04 or US-05 be more suited to this recipe?

Is it worth having both wheat and carapils in there? I want it to have good head retention with good alcohol warmth and spice character, so don't want it finishing too dry. I want the malt character to be fairly complex, and for the Rye to add a deep red colour, but will having all those different malts make it taste muddled?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I want to get on this ASAP!

Cheers

James

Well, it depends a little what you're going for here. When I think Christmas, I think something like a spiced dubbel rather than a lighter-colored beer. For that, you could use a combination of Belgian pale and pils, a little wheat or rye if you wanted, a touch of cara-pils, and then a fair amount of candi sugar (say, 10-20%) to get the color and FG right. I wouldn't use the roasted barley, and since you have Belgian base malts, I wouldn't use the MO either (though it wouldn't cause the end of the world or anything). And ideally, you'd also get a little caramunich or Special B to round out the flavor.

I don't think you'd have a problem with 3787 finishing by Christmas, though it's true that the beer would likely be a bit better in March than in December. But that's going to be true for many high-gravity, darkish beers. It's not enough of a reason not to brew it as long as you start right now, I think. And let the fermentation rise toward the end--even up to the high 70s is fine--to permit the yeast to reach the right final gravity. (FWIW, I don't think that using US-05 is a good idea--it won't finish faster, and the beer will still be dark, strong, and complex, so it will still benefit from aging. But you'll be missing the great Belgian character.)

Be careful with your ginger level. Much better to undershoot it; it's a strong flavor and can dominate. I would go with a mix of small amounts of a greater variety of spices, which helps ensure that no one flavor takes over in a disgusting way. Anything could work--allspice, clove, anise, licorice, cardamom, nutmeg, rosemary, black pepper. One way to experiment is to do much of the spicing at bottling time rather than the boil or fermentation. Boil up a bunch of spice tea, and then add in varying amounts to small samples of your ready-to-bottle beer. When you have a mix you like, scale it up. Much better in my experience.

In a similar vein, I would not add 31 IBUs of Hallertauer at 10 minutes--I'd stick to a slight addition (say, .5 to 1 oz) at 30 minutes, and nothing after that. You could also just add nothing after the bittering addition. If you have a darker beer with spice and Belgian yeast character, the hops are just going to muddy things.

motorneuron said:

Well, it depends a little what you're going for here. When I think Christmas, I think something like a spiced dubbel rather than a lighter-colored beer. For that, you could use a combination of Belgian pale and pils, a little wheat or rye if you wanted, a touch of cara-pils, and then a fair amount of candi sugar (say, 10-20%) to get the color and FG right. I wouldn't use the roasted barley, and since you have Belgian base malts, I wouldn't use the MO either (though it wouldn't cause the end of the world or anything). And ideally, you'd also get a little caramunich or Special B to round out the flavor.

I don't think you'd have a problem with 3787 finishing by Christmas, though it's true that the beer would likely be a bit better in March than in December. But that's going to be true for many high-gravity, darkish beers. It's not enough of a reason not to brew it as long as you start right now, I think. And let the fermentation rise toward the end--even up to the high 70s is fine--to permit the yeast to reach the right final gravity. (FWIW, I don't think that using US-05 is a good idea--it won't finish faster, and the beer will still be dark, strong, and complex, so it will still benefit from aging. But you'll be missing the great Belgian character.)

Be careful with your ginger level. Much better to undershoot it; it's a strong flavor and can dominate. I would go with a mix of small amounts of a greater variety of spices, which helps ensure that no one flavor takes over in a disgusting way. Anything could work--allspice, clove, anise, licorice, cardamom, nutmeg, rosemary, black pepper. One way to experiment is to do much of the spicing at bottling time rather than the boil or fermentation. Boil up a bunch of spice tea, and then add in varying amounts to small samples of your ready-to-bottle beer. When you have a mix you like, scale it up. Much better in my experience.

In a similar vein, I would not add 31 IBUs of Hallertauer at 10 minutes--I'd stick to a slight addition (say, .5 to 1 oz) at 30 minutes, and nothing after that. You could also just add nothing after the bittering addition. If you have a darker beer with spice and Belgian yeast character, the hops are just going to muddy things.

Click to expand...

My reasoning was that a lighter coloured beer may be ready to drink sooner, but if that's nonsense, then I'm all for a darker beer. I fell in love with Belgian beer after driving to Spa-Francorchamps for the Formula 1, and love the darker styles. I'd read about the Belgian Strong Darks, but all seemed to require extensive bottle conditioning that I didn't have time for. These malts are all I have to work with, as the local homebrew shop isn't that local, but from what I've read darker Belgian beers often get a lot of colour contributed from sugar additions. Would a greater proportion of a darker candi sugar be a better bet? I'm kinda stuck with the bulk of the pale malt being MO, as I still want to get my Tripel in the fermenter this week.

So how about ditching the Roasted Barley, reducing the MO to around 2.5kg (35%) and going for 1kg of a darker candi sugar (15%). I know what you mean about the spices, I was using proportions from the GL clone recipe as a starting point. I hate gimmicky beers, and definitely want this to taste like an adults drink and not a child's alco-pop that's like drinking a christmas scented air-freshener. I cook a lot, so will stay away from anise and clove, as they tend to dominate everything, but a little cardomom or corriander might help give a vague spice that isn't overpowering. I'm really after a spiced aroma, so I like the idea of adding a small amount of spices infused in vodka at secondary. I'll probably axe the ginger and use infuse equal parts crushed corriander, cinnamon and cardomom at a later stage.

The hallertauer was a 1oz (3 IBU) addition at 10mins, to keep the bitterness in the 30 IBU range overall as I know hops take a back seat in most Belgian styles. Would adding a small amount a little earlier produce a better product do you think?

Thanks for the advice, it's really helpful. I'm going to get on this tomorrow to give it the best chance of being ready in time.

James

Looks similar to the spiced dubbel I brewed yesterday. Also hoping to tap the keg right around christmas.

Type: All Grain Date: 10/21/2013
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal Brewer:
Boil Size: 6.46 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Volume 5.46 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.01 gal Est Mash Efficiency 76.0 %
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage

OG: 1.070
FG: 1.010

10 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 77.2 %
12.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.8 %
8.0 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.9 %
8.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.9 %
3.2 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.5 %
1.05 oz Ginger Root (Boil 60.0 mins) Herb 6 -
1.25 oz Cascade [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 21.1 IBUs
2.00 Items Cinnamon Stick (Boil 60.0 mins) Spice 8 -
1 lbs Candi Sugar, Dark [Boil for 10 min](90.0 SRM) Sugar 9 7.7 %
1.00 oz Liberty [3.50 %] - Boil 8.0 min Hop 10 3.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [35.49 ml] Yeast

I pitched a 1.5L starter of very healthy yeast and will let temps ramp up to the mid-high 70's until it hits FG. I left the ginger in 1" cubes and there was not a whole lot of flavor in the wort. Lots of smooth cinnamon which should fade into the background by the time I'm drinking it. Hoping for subtle spice to complement the plum and dark fruit notes from the special B and WLP530.

FYI, I've also done the Great Lakes Christmas Ale clone in the past and its very good at 6-7 weeks if you can keg it.

Haha, whoops! The "I" in "IBU" looked like a 1, I guess, so I read 31. Yeah, no problem with 3 IBUs.

I think you'd be fine going with color and flavor basically just from dark sugar, as you suggest. Many medium-colored Belgians use that approach or something similar. You could also add a little depth by doing some home-toasted malt to get some biscuity flavors that aren't too dark.

Also agree that cutting the truly dark roasted barley is the right call.

It looks good--good luck!

Cheers for the help gang, I put this into primary last night and it took off immediately and smelt pretty good at this stage. I made 500g of a dark amber candi sugar and added it near the end of the boil and I'll add another 500g to the fermenter in a couple of days.

Is it better to add the extra sugar while it's still pretty active, or shall I wait until it's calmed down?

James

Also, does anyone know if there are more unfermentables in caramel or candi syrup? I don't want this brew finishing too dry, so am tempted to make a caramel for the addition to the fermenter. Have I got that the right way round?

James

secondratemime said:

Also, does anyone know if there are more unfermentables in caramel or candi syrup? I don't want this brew finishing too dry, so am tempted to make a caramel for the addition to the fermenter. Have I got that the right way round?

James

Click to expand...

What is the difference between the two? Did you make the dark amber candi syrup from SnickASaurusRex's thread? How would a caramel be different?

My Caramel Amber Ale has 1 pound of that dark amber syrup in it and finishes just nice. A Christmas Ale should be able to support 2 pounds or 1 kg. Great Lakes' Christmas Ale calls for 2 pounds of candi sugar or syrup.

You decided to omit the fresh ginger. At some point when you're tasting a sample, you could "dry hop" with some fresh vodka soaked ginger to bring in some of its high notes. A little would go long way at that point.

IslandLizard said:

What is the difference between the two? Did you make the dark amber candi syrup from SnickASaurusRex's thread? How would a caramel be different?

My Caramel Amber Ale has 1 pound of that dark amber syrup in it and finishes just nice. A Christmas Ale should be able to support 2 pounds or 1 kg. Great Lakes' Christmas Ale calls for 2 pounds of candi sugar or syrup.

You decided to omit the fresh ginger. At some point when you're tasting a sample, you could "dry hop" with some fresh vodka soaked ginger to bring in some of its high notes. A little would go long way at that point.

Click to expand...

I couldn't decide whether to add the candi sugar to the boil or the fermenter as both are common. In the end, I split the difference and made a 500g batch for the boil and will probably make another 500g in a day or two. I made it according to the details of that thread, but I'm a scientist so I can't help but experiment. That is a maillard syrup, not a simple caramel and so each will produce a different outcome in the finished beer. Caramelisation is a poorly understood process, but is essentially pyrolysis - the breakdown of organic compounds with heat, used to make butterscotch and toffee. The maillard reaction refers to the reaction between amino acids and sugar when heat is added, such as when a steak browns or bread bakes. As the maillard reaction takes place under the temperature at which caramelisation takes place, I think that makes it a more fermentable product. That said, adding a little caramel might add some interesting character, so I might do both. Priming should be done with a syrup rather than a caramel though, as the carbonation of the latter will be hard to predict.

I went off the idea of ginger, because I was wary of it tasting like gingerbread and wanted something a bit more traditional. I'll probaby use a cinnamon stick and a small amount of crushed corriander and cardomom. Many of their aroma compounds are soluble in alcohol but not water, so I'll toast them to bring out the oils and make an infusion in a little whiskey before adding that during secondary fermentation.

Assuming you made a syrup like in the thread, how much of the flavour came through in the final beer? Or was it mostly for colour and finishing gravity?

James

Hey James--I think I missed some of the earlier posts, sorry. But in traditional Belgian medium-to-dark beers, the dark sugar provides a great deal of flavor; it's not just for color and finishing gravity (though it affects those too). In fact, many American takes on dubbels and quads don't taste right because they rely too much on malty flavors, rather than the dark fruit, marshmallow kind of flavor that you get from cooked sugar.

Other than that--I tend to add the sugar at high kraeusen in higher-gravity worts, because it's supposedly better for the yeast. But your approach will work too, especially if your yeast is otherwise healthy.

Your steps look good. Let us know how it goes!

Hey James--I think I missed some of the earlier posts, sorry. But in traditional Belgian medium-to-dark beers, the dark sugar provides a great deal of flavor; it's not just for color and finishing gravity (though it affects those too). In fact, many American takes on dubbels and quads don't taste right because they rely too much on malty flavors, rather than the dark fruit, marshmallow kind of flavor that you get from cooked sugar.

Other than that--I tend to add the sugar at high kraeusen in higher-gravity worts, because it's supposedly better for the yeast. But your approach will work too, especially if your yeast is otherwise healthy.

Your steps look good. Let us know how it goes!

secondratemime said:

I couldn't decide whether to add the candi sugar to the boil or the fermenter as both are common. In the end, I split the difference and made a 500g batch for the boil and will probably make another 500g in a day or two. I made it according to the details of that thread, but I'm a scientist so I can't help but experiment. That is a maillard syrup, not a simple caramel and so each will produce a different outcome in the finished beer. Caramelisation is a poorly understood process, but is essentially pyrolysis - the breakdown of organic compounds with heat, used to make butterscotch and toffee. The maillard reaction refers to the reaction between amino acids and sugar when heat is added, such as when a steak browns or bread bakes. As the maillard reaction takes place under the temperature at which caramelisation takes place, I think that makes it a more fermentable product. That said, adding a little caramel might add some interesting character, so I might do both. Priming should be done with a syrup rather than a caramel though, as the carbonation of the latter will be hard to predict.

I went off the idea of ginger, because I was wary of it tasting like gingerbread and wanted something a bit more traditional. I'll probaby use a cinnamon stick and a small amount of crushed corriander and cardomom. Many of their aroma compounds are soluble in alcohol but not water, so I'll toast them to bring out the oils and make an infusion in a little whiskey before adding that during secondary fermentation.

Assuming you made a syrup like in the thread, how much of the flavour came through in the final beer? Or was it mostly for colour and finishing gravity?

James

Click to expand...

OK, that makes a good distinction. Candy (Maillard) Syrup (complex amino acid derived sugar compounds) vs caramel (simply "controlled burnt sugar"). I know the difference.

When making the dark amber candy syrup I also use some lime (calcium hydroxide) in the concoction to raise the pH, per Ryanbrews candy syrup

The "caramel" flavor is full and well pronounced in that Caramel Amber Ale, and is among the best Ambers I've tasted. The finish is clean and surprisingly dry, which makes it so intriguing to drink. You can't stop.

I've brewed the Great Lakes Christmas Ale Clone and used brown sugar instead of the (hard) candy sugar the recipe called for. Although the beer was very good and tasty, I concluded I really don't like even the slight taste of molasses in (that) beer, and next time I'll use Candy Syrup instead. I had boiled the ginger and cinnamon (cassia actually) stick, but missed the high fragrance notes from both, but mostly the ginger. So I'll be "dry gingering" some next time. Your suggestion of using cardomom, toasting spices, and whiskey for infusion sounds great too. Or Baccardi Black Rum. Not sure about using coriander in the GL Clone, it ain't Belgian. Doing all that, I realize it won't be a GLCA clone anymore, but that's what brewing is for. Experimenting and creating something that's hopefully as good or possibly better.

I've added the candi sugar in the boil and afterwards a couple days into fermentation. Both will work fine for high gravity brews as long as the yeast is healthy and you pitched appropriately. The dark candi sugar is critical for Belgian dubbels and will be awesome combined with some holiday spice.

Adding it during fermentation will probably help it finish lower, but I prefer to boil the sugar for 10 minutes to make sure its mixed thoroughly in the wort and sanitized. In my experience, proper pitch rates and fermentation temps will get the beer down to FG.

Not to derail the thread but none of the recipes I have seen for GLCA call for any additional sugar, and having access to quite a bit of that beer seasonally, I don't think there's any in it. That beer's flavor comes from the spices and whatever yeast Great Lakes uses (some form of English Ale yeast most likely).

Your recipe looks great, keep us posted on how it turns out.

buckeye2011 said:

...Not to derail the thread but none of the recipes I have seen for GLCA call for any additional sugar, and having access to quite a bit of that beer seasonally, I don't think there's any in it. That beer's flavor comes from the spices and whatever yeast Great Lakes uses (some form of English Ale yeast most likely)....

Click to expand...

I relied on memory and since it has been awhile since I brewed it, I just looked it up to set the record straight: Great Lakes Christmas Ale Clone

No (candy) sugar addition, but it calls for honey, which is mostly fermentable sugar, I guess that part stuck:
1.25 lb Honey (Flame out) Sugar 9.20 %

And this yeast:
1 Pkgs London Ale (Wyeast Labs #1028) Yeast-Ale. Pretty sure GL uses their own English Ale strain.

buckeye2011 said:

Looks similar to the spiced dubbel I brewed yesterday. Also hoping to tap the keg right around christmas.

Type: All Grain Date: 10/21/2013
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal Brewer:
Boil Size: 6.46 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Volume 5.46 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.01 gal Est Mash Efficiency 76.0 %
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage

OG: 1.070
FG: 1.010

10 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 77.2 %
12.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.8 %
8.0 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.9 %
8.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.9 %
3.2 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.5 %
1.05 oz Ginger Root (Boil 60.0 mins) Herb 6 -
1.25 oz Cascade [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 21.1 IBUs
2.00 Items Cinnamon Stick (Boil 60.0 mins) Spice 8 -
1 lbs Candi Sugar, Dark [Boil for 10 min](90.0 SRM) Sugar 9 7.7 %
1.00 oz Liberty [3.50 %] - Boil 8.0 min Hop 10 3.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [35.49 ml] Yeast

I pitched a 1.5L starter of very healthy yeast and will let temps ramp up to the mid-high 70's until it hits FG. I left the ginger in 1" cubes and there was not a whole lot of flavor in the wort. Lots of smooth cinnamon which should fade into the background by the time I'm drinking it. Hoping for subtle spice to complement the plum and dark fruit notes from the special B and WLP530.

FYI, I've also done the Great Lakes Christmas Ale clone in the past and its very good at 6-7 weeks if you can keg it.

Click to expand...

Sounds good to me, just hope it'll all be ready in time!

James

IslandLizard said:

OK, that makes a good distinction. Candy (Maillard) Syrup (complex amino acid derived sugar compounds) vs caramel (simply "controlled burnt sugar"). I know the difference.

When making the dark amber candy syrup I also use some lime (calcium hydroxide) in the concoction to raise the pH, per Ryanbrews candy syrup

The "caramel" flavor is full and well pronounced in that Caramel Amber Ale, and is among the best Ambers I've tasted. The finish is clean and surprisingly dry, which makes it so intriguing to drink. You can't stop.

I've brewed the Great Lakes Christmas Ale Clone and used brown sugar instead of the (hard) candy sugar the recipe called for. Although the beer was very good and tasty, I concluded I really don't like even the slight taste of molasses in (that) beer, and next time I'll use Candy Syrup instead. I had boiled the ginger and cinnamon (cassia actually) stick, but missed the high fragrance notes from both, but mostly the ginger. So I'll be "dry gingering" some next time. Your suggestion of using cardomom, toasting spices, and whiskey for infusion sounds great too. Or Baccardi Black Rum. Not sure about using coriander in the GL Clone, it ain't Belgian. Doing all that, I realize it won't be a GLCA clone anymore, but that's what brewing is for. Experimenting and creating something that's hopefully as good or possibly better.

Click to expand...

Yeah I've never tried GLCA being from the UK, so I was just using it as a frame of reference for a spiced christmassy ale. As I had a big Belgian starter made up, I figured I'd go down that route.

The caramel amber ale sounds great, that's the kind of character that I want in this batch, so I'll probably stick with the home made candi syrup.

James