The Keggle Brewer vs Synergy Rig

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Julohan

Julohan

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So I will most likely be buying a complete brew rig in January. Here is Keggle Brewer http://www.kegglebrewing.com/The-Keggle-Brewer_p_173.html#

Here is Synergy http://www.synergymetalworking.com/

I like Keggle Brewer because the stand is cool with the controls. Its is about $2500 though. Shipping is free though, also I would be close enough to do a pick up probably. Maybe I could get it down to $2200-$2300, because I already have a plate chiller, and a pump. The frame is made of steel, not stainless. The burners are 55,000.

Synergy is a stainless steel frame. The cost for everything is $1900 plus shipping so maybe $2200+. I like the valve position on the MLT. The two burners are 155,000. $50 for a pump mount added.

I am torn between the two. Any input?
 
If your close enough to pick up from Keggle then it has the advantage of being close enough to get any issues resolved easier. You should also be able to go look at it as I assume he must have one built somewhere. Otherwise you are going to have to make a trip to Oregon to see Synergy.
 
Sawdustguy said:
I like the way Synergy does their Keggles. The valve is at the very bottom negating the need for a dip tube.
Click to expand...

Dang...I'd been considering doing the same thing to the kegs I plan to convert. I admit I haven't started with all grain yet but it made sense to me.
...really...(stop laughing):D

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knew why (if I'm looking at the right picture) the hole is not in the flat center, located on the bottom of the keg. It appears to be about halfway down the slope. All I can figure is that the bottom of the chamber is at the same level as the outside rim, which would not leave enough room for the plumbing.
If that's the case, they must have used a 45 degree elbow to get to the valve.
Am I missing anything?

-Grub
 
Are you are talking about the Synergy rig, the top right picture? If so, I believe the is the BK with a filter on it. not the MLT. If not, forget what I just typed.
 
The synergy system seems to be missing a way to heat the MLT. If you buy it, you'll probably want to add a HERMS coil to the HLT. The bottom drain is a huge plus though. Awesome.
 
I have never mashed in a keg. I use a rubbermaid cooler now. The guy from synergy emailed, and said with the insulation, it will hold the heat easily. I wasn't too sure about that. Also, being in Ohio the cold winters, I am sure it will not hold well at all.

Side note, I was thinking of buying blichmann pots or even cheaper versions. It may be about the same price. But, I agree the bottom valve for the MLT is awesome.
 
Yes, it's in the upper right photo here at:

http://www.synergymetalworking.com/images/brewing/images/2.jpg

I think it's also in some of the other photos. Like I said, all I can figure is that it's located there to be high enough to allow the plumbing to fit between the bottom rim and the chamber. Since I'm planning on having mine up on a rack, I may just go ahead and put the drain in the flat bottom surface, exactly at the center of the bottom. I had thought I'd have a tri-clover fitting welded in but I haven't worked out the details yet.
I'd sure appreciate advice from anybody as to why this might be a poor idea.
-Grub
 
I've emailed a bunch with the guy from Synergy...the "stock" systems only have 2 burners, but you can add one on. You can pretty much add or take away anything you want or don't need. Seemed really easy to work with.
 
Grubmeister said:
Yes, it's in the upper right photo here at:

http://www.synergymetalworking.com/images/brewing/images/2.jpg

I think it's also in some of the other photos. Like I said, all I can figure is that it's located there to be high enough to allow the plumbing to fit between the bottom rim and the chamber. Since I'm planning on having mine up on a rack, I may just go ahead and put the drain in the flat bottom surface, exactly at the center of the bottom. I had thought I'd have a tri-clover fitting welded in but I haven't worked out the details yet.
I'd sure appreciate advice from anybody as to why this might be a poor idea.
-Grub
Click to expand...

If you are direct heating your mash tun using a burner I would say the middle of the bottom would be a bad place to have your outlet. If you are using a RIMS or HERMS, it's a great place.
 
Kilted Brewer said:
I've emailed a bunch with the guy from Synergy...the "stock" systems only have 2 burners, but you can add one on. You can pretty much add or take away anything you want or don't need. Seemed really easy to work with.
Click to expand...

Will the burners affect the plumping on the bottom of the MLT. I am guessing it wont since it is on the HLT.
 
Sawdustguy said:
If you are direct heating your mash tun using a burner I would say the middle of the bottom would be a bad place to have your outlet. If you are using a RIMS or HERMS, it's a great place.
Click to expand...

I have in mind a herms system. I had been planning to go all electric but I need to do more work on the design. Originally I wanted to go with big, low density heating elements at 220VAC. I have not yet decided if a gas burner would be all that helpful as auxillary heat in any of the chambers. It would probably be most helpful in the HLT, where the heat exchange coil resides. I am not familiar with all the gas burners available, and I have not seen every configuration of herms but at this point I have yet to see a gas burner on the bottom with a drain pipe welded in the middle of the keg (bottom). I'm sure IF it's doable it would require a welded shielding around the drain plumbing. For that matter, I'm not sure it wouldn't compromise the structural integrity of the keg bottom to have fittings welded in the same area that the gas burner would be applied. I suppose I could build as an all electric, with drains in the bottom and decide, based on performance, if it needs the burners. That would be a modification or just version v2.0. There's always version v2.0 right? We didn't get into this hobby to save money did we. Anyone???
I'd be interested in other opinions as to whether the gas burner is even necessary. I guess I'll continue to familiarize myself with the forum search option.
-Grub
 
It's a decent idea to go with propane burners even if you plan electric in the future. Think of it this way, you can't show up to a brewing gathering and ask the host for a 8/3 SJ extension cord.
 
Well I decided to go with Keggle Brewer. He is upgrading the burners for $75. I just bought the stand not the keggles. Its also about 2 hours away which makes it easier if there is any problems with it.
 
I am in the same boat as you. I would like to purchase a 'reference quality' (that's what audiophiles call something if it sounds good) homebrew rig. I don't want to use plastic of any kind. I am somewhat of a DIY'er (I'd give me a 4 out of 10- willing but not experienced) but not a welder at all and don't know one. I don't want weldless fittings. I am interested in opening a brewery someday (blah, blah,blah...) and want something I can use for R&D/small batches.... Basically, I am a buy once and buy right kind of guy and very seldomly sell something I have bought to upgrade. I want to skip that step.

I have, for the most part, narrowed it down to these 2 systems. I would have to accent the Synergy rig with extras that the keggle brewer has standard, so I think these 2 systems are pretty price competitive. I also live in NY which is closer to keggle than synergy.

I would like a system that can be automated at a later date, but don't want that to begin with. I'm not interested in a brew tree design, I am more interested in having pumps and a small footprint system and ease of use at a slightly greater expense (but not Sabco expensive).

At this point, it seems that a supe'd up synergy or a keggle brewer is what I want. I have not found any reviews for either that don't include several posts from people saying that they are too expensive... but those same people are not offering to build anyone a rig!!! ;) If they were and I had my choice, I'd want a duplicate of the blackheartbrewery rig. Verrry nice.

So, what' a guy to do but spend some money.

Can someone lead me in the right direction?
1) From what I can see, the keggle brewer needs bigger burners and fermenters and you're good to go, right? The Synergy needs quite a bit more as it's a bit bare bones, but nice quality.
2) The welding on the Synergy pictures looks a little cleaner, but we aren't talking about fermenters, so I don't think it's much of an issue, right?
3) I don't see why there are sight glasses on all 3 keggles on the keggle brewer, but I guess it doesn't hurt.
4) Is one a better choice in terms of flexibility for future expansion and automation? I'm not sure that the spigot on the bottom of the MLT on the Synergy rig would stand up to being directly fired over and over again, but I just don't know.
5) {This space is left blank for the question I'm not savvy enough to ask but want an answer to:cross:}

Lots of questions, I know, and I fully embrace my rank of newbie. I have been researching for several months now, I just want to skip the first step most hobbyists take before either building a rig just like this or buying one.

Cheers everyone!
 
SankePankey said:
I am in the same boat as you. I would like to purchase a 'reference quality' (that's what audiophiles call something if it sounds good) homebrew rig. I don't want to use plastic of any kind. I am somewhat of a DIY'er (I'd give me a 4 out of 10- willing but not experienced) but not a welder at all and don't know one. I don't want weldless fittings. I am interested in opening a brewery someday (blah, blah,blah...) and want something I can use for R&D/small batches.... Basically, I am a buy once and buy right kind of guy and very seldomly sell something I have bought to upgrade. I want to skip that step.

I have, for the most part, narrowed it down to these 2 systems. I would have to accent the Synergy rig with extras that the keggle brewer has standard, so I think these 2 systems are pretty price competitive. I also live in NY which is closer to keggle than synergy.

I would like a system that can be automated at a later date, but don't want that to begin with. I'm not interested in a brew tree design, I am more interested in having pumps and a small footprint system and ease of use at a slightly greater expense (but not Sabco expensive).

At this point, it seems that a supe'd up synergy or a keggle brewer is what I want. I have not found any reviews for either that don't include several posts from people saying that they are too expensive... but those same people are not offering to build anyone a rig!!! ;) If they were and I had my choice, I'd want a duplicate of the blackheartbrewery rig. Verrry nice.

So, what' a guy to do but spend some money.

Can someone lead me in the right direction?
1) From what I can see, the keggle brewer needs bigger burners and fermenters and you're good to go, right? The Synergy needs quite a bit more as it's a bit bare bones, but nice quality.
2) The welding on the Synergy pictures looks a little cleaner, but we aren't talking about fermenters, so I don't think it's much of an issue, right?
3) I don't see why there are sight glasses on all 3 keggles on the keggle brewer, but I guess it doesn't hurt.
4) Is one a better choice in terms of flexibility for future expansion and automation? I'm not sure that the spigot on the bottom of the MLT on the Synergy rig would stand up to being directly fired over and over again, but I just don't know.
5) {This space is left blank for the question I'm not savvy enough to ask but want an answer to:cross:}

Lots of questions, I know, and I fully embrace my rank of newbie. I have been researching for several months now, I just want to skip the first step most hobbyists take before either building a rig just like this or buying one.

Cheers everyone!
Click to expand...

If you truely want "Reference Quality", and you feel you will open a brewery someday and want a system that can be used as a pilot brewery for that Brewery, I would buy a Sabco Brew Magic. The system is known for repeatability and is used by a number of micro breweries as a pilot system. You would not have to DIY anything. It is semi-automated, uses sanitary connections, is very nicely built and is not cheap as you know. I am finding out through my automation project that automating it later is very expensive and I would have saved a ton of money by doing it up front.
 
SankePankey said:
I am in the same boat as you. I would like to purchase a 'reference quality' (that's what audiophiles call something if it sounds good) homebrew rig. I don't want to use plastic of any kind. I am somewhat of a DIY'er (I'd give me a 4 out of 10- willing but not experienced) but not a welder at all and don't know one. I don't want weldless fittings. I am interested in opening a brewery someday (blah, blah,blah...) and want something I can use for R&D/small batches.... Basically, I am a buy once and buy right kind of guy and very seldomly sell something I have bought to upgrade. I want to skip that step.

I have, for the most part, narrowed it down to these 2 systems. I would have to accent the Synergy rig with extras that the keggle brewer has standard, so I think these 2 systems are pretty price competitive. I also live in NY which is closer to keggle than synergy.

I would like a system that can be automated at a later date, but don't want that to begin with. I'm not interested in a brew tree design, I am more interested in having pumps and a small footprint system and ease of use at a slightly greater expense (but not Sabco expensive).

At this point, it seems that a supe'd up synergy or a keggle brewer is what I want. I have not found any reviews for either that don't include several posts from people saying that they are too expensive... but those same people are not offering to build anyone a rig!!! ;) If they were and I had my choice, I'd want a duplicate of the blackheartbrewery rig. Verrry nice.

So, what' a guy to do but spend some money.

Can someone lead me in the right direction?
1) From what I can see, the keggle brewer needs bigger burners and fermenters and you're good to go, right? The Synergy needs quite a bit more as it's a bit bare bones, but nice quality.
2) The welding on the Synergy pictures looks a little cleaner, but we aren't talking about fermenters, so I don't think it's much of an issue, right?
3) I don't see why there are sight glasses on all 3 keggles on the keggle brewer, but I guess it doesn't hurt.
4) Is one a better choice in terms of flexibility for future expansion and automation? I'm not sure that the spigot on the bottom of the MLT on the Synergy rig would stand up to being directly fired over and over again, but I just don't know.
5) {This space is left blank for the question I'm not savvy enough to ask but want an answer to:cross:}

Lots of questions, I know, and I fully embrace my rank of newbie. I have been researching for several months now, I just want to skip the first step most hobbyists take before either building a rig just like this or buying one.

Cheers everyone!
Click to expand...

Not saying Synergy and Keggle Brewing aren't great, but if you aren't looking to spend Sabco coin I think you are overlooking B3 which has systems in a wide price range (as low as Synergy/Keggle to as high as Sabco) that are a little more battle tested.
 
Has anyone ordered one of these synergy rigs? Reputable company? Customer service?

http://synergymetalworking.com/

Seems like a really nice setup and I am not sure I could build the thing myself out of stainless steel using a local shop for a lower price?

I'm looking at the 2 tier with an additional burner under the MT (already have the converted kegs ready to go).......now if I could get that for under a grand I think I would pull the trigger (once I sell enough crap to afford it)
 
I ended up buying his fermenter. The welding is very good. If I were to buy a brewstand and not weld one, I would buy his for the price/performance ratio. The stands alone are somewhere in the $800 range (don't quote me on that). I took schematics from this site for a single tier stainless stand with piano hinge style tippy dump mechanisms and a control box arm (so just a little bit more to do than his stands... which he would probably mod for you as well).... and I got a $1500 quote from a local TIG welder here in NY (so, probably price in comparison). I just gave up on sourcing a welder after that.

Can't comment on the usability of his keggles, etc., but how different can they be from others. I really like the bottom dump valves. If I were to do HERMS, I would probably go for his rig. If I was direct firing the mash, I may ask for something different.

The guy does custom welds for brewing 'heros' in Oregon including Rogue, from what he told me. He is very helpful over the phone. I ended up going a different route than a keggle system for my brewhouse, but for the $ I think it's great. And get a few $$ off by going for his ebay auction (which he can mod after the fact as well).
 
SS square tubing at steel distributors around here runs about $200 for a 20' length. There is probably 40 feet in that stand (I have 60' in mine, so I am guessing), so $400 retail, not to mention the cutting, welding... etc.
 
I got an ~$250 (lets say $300 then) quote from the metal yard for 50' of 1" 1/16th SS tube who then gave me the reference of that welder who gave me the $1500 quote for the whole thing. Even the metal yard guy said it would probably be more like $800 for the job (which is around what Aaron is charging). Maybe he was too hot to trot, but I still just gave up after that (and I'm glad I did).
 
I wont say what I paid for my SS tubing ;) But, the lowest price locally was $198 per 20' length. Never got a quote on the welding, that was free, but $700 for a TiG welded SS stand with burners and casters installed, is pretty good IMHO
 
If your looking for SS tube and have a bit of time I would suggest locating some of the local scrap dealers in your area. Here in central Ohio we have several, while I have not personally done this, a few of the folks in our brew club have. Most have paid $1 to $2 /lb. for SS tube "scrap". I have also heard of some lucky soles finding corney and sanke keg while hunting for tube. Good luck.
 

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